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Untitled

Perhaps we should add a section of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis to this page. It is a major event in Lebanon history.

Also, my apologies for botching up some discussion pages and user talk pages. I'm having trouble figuring everything out.

"By early 1976, the war was going poorly for the Maronites BLA!!, and Syria sent 40,000 troops into the country to prevent them from being overrun; that Baathist Syrians were fighting against Palestinian forces was and remains ironic.":Why did the Baathists back the Maronites? Why is this ironic?

Syria originally backed the Maronites simply because they did not want Israel to get involved, which they feared might happen in the wake of a Maronite defeat. It's ironic, because the Maronites later turned to Israel anyway (sort of), and fought against the Syrian military from 1978 onwards. David Cannon 22:46, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Numerousfalx, I would like you justification for stating that Lebanon is a protectorate of Syria. I think this is a highly charged political statement that needs justification. Until that justification is provided, I am deleting the reference. Thank you! PZFUN 05:23, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And why is no mention made of the Israeli invasion of 1982? 19,000 people killed, a big mess made, US came in to try to clean it up. Most historians agree that Israel's '82 incursion was the cause of the rise of Hizbollah. - Leila

A minor nitpick, but if no one minds too much, I'll add a sentence or so, explaining that the UN has officially declared Shebaa Farms BLA! to not be part of Lebanon. Also, Leila, I would argue that the rise of Hezbolla is its own fault. Choosing to become a terrorist organization is a free and conscious decision, as is joining such an organization, and engaging in the sorts of activities that Hezbollah engages in. LordAmeth 18:18, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC).

Sure, but it's clearly the case that the 1982 debacle was instrumental in building support for Hezbullah, whatever you may think of that organization. Tim Bray 22:23, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Lebanon is under Syrian occupation. Anyone who denies that either doens't know Lebanon, or profits from the current situation. Hezbollah's rise was not due to the Israeli invasion. The people who later became Hezbollah were on the forefront of those welcoming the Israelis (because they were ridding them of the Palestinian threat). Hezbollah's excuse was the Israeli invasion, but Hezbollah's actual goals have nothing to do with Lebanon's freedom, independance, or sovereignty.

Further to the above, the article weirdly fails to mention how it is that the Syrian military came to be present in Lebanon; the invasion in the seventies (have to go look up the year) - weirdly, to save the Maronites & Phalangists from losing the civil war - is certainly worthy of note. Tim Bray 22:23, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC) (Fixed it. Tim Bray 00:29, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC))

Tim, you should probably look at the Lebanese Civil War and History of Lebanon articles too to make sure there is not too much overlap. Jayjg (talk) 04:30, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would like to expand the part of the History section related to the Ottoman period. Can I do it on the main page or are you suggesting to use the Lebanon/Temp page? Who is completely rewriting the article on that page? Francesco Mazzucotelli

Useful Resource

capsule history from Juan Cole.

Small Question

Why do we sometimes call the country "The Lebanon"? Adambisset 22:37, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Same reason we used to say "The Ukraine", I guess Tim Bray 00:29, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Lebanon is a mountain range that gave its name to the country. There is a nice mape at [1]. We say "The Gambia" because this country is named after a river by the same name that runs straight through the middle of the country. Why we sometimes say "The Ukraine", I don't know. It could be something fairly obscure, as I have asked a Ukrainian friend of mine and he didn't know. I have noticed that in all these cases, the use of "The" is declining. 137.99.17.110 15:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

National motto

I don't think that the lebanese national motto is siyédé, 7orriyé, est2elel (freedom, sovereignity, independance). It's more like a phrase invented during the Cedar Revolution (and a little before). Im my thought, the lebanese motto is taken from the lebanese national anthem Koulluna Lilwatan (All for the country) 500LL 16:19, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, "Freedom, Sovereignty, and Independance," referring to "liberation" from France, Israel, and Syria respectively, was developed I think by the Freedom Movement in commemoration for the first Lebanese independence day following the Cedar Revolution. -EDG 69.37.120.209
It was a used motto during the Cedar revolution, but it surely isn't the national motto. CG 11:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
7orriyé, siyédé, est2elel (freedom, sovereignity, independance) is the motto of FPM (Free Patriotic Movement-al tayyar al watani al hor -see http://www.tayyar.org) it was their motto during their political resistance against the syrian occupation and their lebanese agents for the last 15 years (1990-2005) until it was adopted later by the different other participants during the cedar revolution.User:Cyberius

Crowd estimate

Hi Addoula, can you provide a reference on the talk page for this edit please: "Lebanese officials estimated the crowds at around one and a half milion"? Many thanks, SlimVirgin 01:00, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Well, my sources are from newspapers in Lebanon, and from some news sites. The newspapers are in arabic, and i don't think they keep them always online. I will try to see if i can found them back. Addoula 02:49, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Here is 2 links [2] and [3]
Thanks for finding those Addoula. The second doesn't mention the source, but the first says "an official source" and the television station of the Syrian-backed group Amal. So I wonder whether al-Jazeera was just picking it up from Amal. I'm going to attribute the claim in the article. SlimVirgin 06:22, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
I removed the bolded part of this section: "Targeted by resolution 1559, and considered a terrorist group by Western governments, Hezbollah has been ordered to disarm. The group has since tried to organize protests against foreign intervention, in order to retain a leading role in the country, and also to continue promoting fundamentalism, which would cause friction and general instability in the region. It was a little unclear: they want to retain a leading role ... in order to continue promoting fundamentalism. I know what you mean but it's not clear exactly how one leads to the other; perhaps if it was reworded. And "which would cause friction" etc. I'm sure that's right, but it's an opinion and needs attribution. SlimVirgin 06:41, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)


Civil War 1975- 1990?

The article says that the civil war lasted between 1975 to 1990. If I'm not mistaken, I think the civil war in Lebanon lasted until 1992. Didn't the war last for 17 years?--Gramaic 23:20, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The war started in 1975, and the last big battle was fought in October 1990, between General Michel Aoun and Syrian forces (backed by others, among them the Christian milita "Lebanese Forces"). In September 1991 the Lebanese-Syrian Security Pact war signed. This could be seen as a kind of official ending of the war, if you like. Most people refer to a timeline of 15 years, from 1975 to 1990.

Article size

Don't you think that the size of this article is a bit too big. I think that it should be shortened, especially in the history (Cedar revolution) and politics section, since there is a main article of each. 500LL 17:36, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I think the entire Cedar Revolution section can be summarized into one or two lines and simply linked. --AladdinSE 21:28, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Beirut-Blog.de / Beirut-Diary.com - Country profile "Lebanon"

Hi all, I had a discussion with Jayjg about the websites mentioned above. I put the links in, he removed them. I think the sites contain some interesting information about the "Cedar Revolution". Especially the media section is not bad (never found such coverage of the blasts anywhere else on the web). And the recent report about a demonstration for Samir Geagea is not bad as well (also no such stuff found in the mainstream media at that time). So, if you feel like these pages could be of value for Wikipedia, please leave your comment. Please take a closer look before commenting. Though the names of the pages may make you think they are blogs. Indeed, they are not. The author is a German freelancer. I am not the author.

Best wishes Professorarguile

There is no such thing as "too much history." The "Cedar Revolution" is a glorious and PEACEFUL event (honestly, how often is it that so many can converge in one place of heightened political and social tension without a violent ending?) evincing the true nature and desires of the people. Please do not cut the article short.

Lebanon is an ancient and complicated country..cutting this section short would only create confusion in the minds of people who arent familiar with its history. There is nothing easy about describing the Civil War or the Cedar Revolution and while its true that the former lasted for about 15 years and the latter for aproximately 6 months...both need to be described in detail because of the sheer significance that accompanies both events. Oh and by the way, about Shebbaa Farms, both the UN and Isreal are willing to concede that the territory is Lebanese provided that Syria and Lebanon complete the appropriate paperwork with the UN. Currently Prime Minister Siniora is actively pursuing Syrian cooperation in this endeavor but has pretty much been stone-walled. Some believe that Syria's lack of cooperation stems from its belief that if Shebaa Farms is resolved Hizbollah will be forced to disarm and Syria will be left with no indirect means to attack Isreal and its interests. The last thing that Syria wants right now, especially after all its political failures thus far, is to become irrelevant. -NCNA

Demographics issues

Lebanese demographics have 2 problems: 1) it is a politically sensitive topic (christian vs muslim majority etc.) and therefore open to advocacy and 2) there are no reliable census numbers (apparently on purpose, because of issue 1). I would love to see more sources on this, but all that is listed is estimates.

I reverted on of the changes by 64.136.49.226 namely that the christian diaspora is majority christian. I think there is little disagreement on this, when the diaspora includes people of Lebanese descent (prior to the civil war, most emigration was christian ). In fact, this is one of the reasons that there is now a muslim majority in Lebanon proper. 64.136.49.226 did not challenge that fact in a previous paragraph. Tony Makhlouf

It's a controversial topic here: either give a range of numbers on which everybody will agree, or give the source of the number. --equitor 21:38, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Lebanese is not a language

It is a dialect. However, those who argue that it is a language do not call it "Lebanese". They identify it as Levantine_Arabic. Either way, "Lebanese" is not a language.Yuber 01:17, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Yuber, You are absolutely correct: It is a dialect that is understood by most of the Arabic speaking countries, but spoken only by the Lebanese. Said Akl (poet and writer) has created an alphabet that is used to write the "spoken arabic called Lebanese", and can still be found in Lebanon, though not widely used.

Vandalism

Vandalism possibility from user at IP 70.68.229.245 --NEWUSER|CARPEDIEM (talk) 11:53, May 25, 2005 (UTC)


"Cedar Revolution" !!! why?

I wanna know how come the name for the revolution that happened in leb recently have been called the name "Cedar Revolution", this name has been given by U.S. officials, not lebanese!! Lebanese do call it Intifada of Independence, that's a fact! should it be named the way lebanese call it or what western medias prefer to call?

The most popular term for it in the English-speaking world is "Cedar Revolution". Yes, Lebanese do not call it that, but this is the English Wikipedia.Yuber(talk) 18:23, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's best to keep the title "Cedar Revolution." I personally think if someone uses the term "Intifada of Independence," the general public will automatically think of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when they hear the word "intifada."--Gramaic 00:46, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sadly it seems that the term "intifada" is pushed by media to be linked with Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the term "initifada" refers to the ppl own wakeup call against pressure, mistreatement and discrimination. To be fair, just and objective you should put both in the title! be open for christ's sake!!! --Jean 22:08, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

History or Current Events?

The History section of this article is pretty much limited to the last 30 years, or less than 0,5% of Lebanese history.

Friends, this is supposed to be an encyclapedia. There is another Wiki project for news. There is a lot that can be said about Lebanese history, from the invention of the alphabet, to the circumnavigation of Africa (before the founding of Rome), to the story of how the name changed from Purple Country to Yogurt Country. I'd be glad to contribute. Can we reach a consensus on the content? --Philopedia 5 July 2005 13:32 (UTC)

Yes I think that the history section of the article should be summarized, specially the Cedar revolutio part. You're right, this section is very unbalanced: why the withdrawal of Syrian troops have a subsection and the withdrawal of french troops doesn't have one? 500LL July 5, 2005 13:49 (UTC)

Thanks! I've noticed that there is a [Canaan] site as well, although there, too, there are major problems. I'll want to think how best to proceed. In the meantime I am adding a couple of external links. The US State Department maintains a collection of country studies which, while not without bias, does an admirable job of describing Lebanese history. There is also the Daily Star, an above average, on-line Lebanese newspaper. --Philopedia 7 July 2005 13:00 (UTC)

Environmental destruction

Apparently, Lebanon was not a baren desert some 5000 years ago. Human, as destructive as we are were responsible for the sorry state that country is in. This is according to a book called The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight by Thom Hartmann. A couple of quotes are available here that demonstrate the difference the 5000 years have brought. [4] I think, if someone have read this book, its worth adding a paragraph that highlight this historical information.

i don't understand your statement. Lebanon is far to be a "baren desert". Although there is obviously an hydric stress, the situation is far from being as bad as in Israel and Jordan (ever been to the snow covered Mt Lebanon ?). Though it is true that massive deforrestation happened in the last 5000 yrs, it is not specific to Lebanon (where did it not happen where humans settled massively ?).
Furthermore, connection with your link (which is actually a forum post, not to be considered as a reliable link) is not obvious as the post is focusing on the "fertile crescent", mentioning only Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.
Thus, I don't say that this is not an issue, but it is not at all a lebanon-specific issue. Would be interesting to develop it in a article such as "Environmental Issues in Middle East", or "Human caused environmental changes", whatever... Kekel 06:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Damour massacre

I've just started this new article that talks about the massacre that took place in Damour, Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War. I thought that the people who work with this article would also like to work and edit the article Damour massacre. --Gramaic | Talk 09:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I wonder why are you writing an article about this only..there were millions of massacres done in lebanon during the israeli invasion and then during the civil war...i think it would be more appropriate if you place a section on massacres and list them instead of detailing one of these--Silent Music

Because like Sabra and Shatila, it's an important massacre in Lebanese history. And there wasn't 'millions of massacres' in Lebanon. --equitor 18:02, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks equitor. The reason I'm currently writing about the massacre that took place in Damour, is because this is one of the events in Lebanon I'm more familiar with. By the way, Silent Music (whatever you call yourself), you stated that "you think it would be more appropriate if I placed a section on massacres and listed them instead of detailing one of these." Then go create and start more articles about various different massacres that took place in Lebanon. Who's stopping you? Wikipedia can sure use more good contributors. Regards, --Gramaic | Talk 00:08, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

what should figure in this article

I just saw that this was added

Maj. Gen. Jamil Sayyed, the top Syrian ally in the Lebanese security forces, resigned on Monday, 25 April, just a day before the final Syrian troops pulled out of Lebanon.

Is it really worth being in the article? I mean the article is on Lebanon but should not be an exhaustive chronology of the country's politics. This should be placed in Lebanon's politics article--equitor 05:09, July 25, 2005 (UTC)


This page contains far too many external links. Wikipedia is not a web directory. I've removed the following. Angela. 21:25, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Overviews

History

Governmental

  • Dar al Fatwa
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.
  • Internal Security Forces
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.
  • Lebanese Armed Forces
    • Broken link.
  • Ministry of Post & Telecommunications
    • Might be relevant in a telecommunications article. Is not relevant in this one.
  • National Archives
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.
  • The Lebanese Parliament
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.
  • The Supreme Islamic Shi'ite Council
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.

Educational

All of these could be in articles about those universities if they're useful. They are not relevant to a general article on the country.

Political

  • Hezbollah
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.
  • Lebanese Forces
    • Might be relevant in an article about the Lebanese Forces, but not in one about the country.
  • The Lebanese Kataeb
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.
  • Free Patriotic Movement
    • Site is in Arabic, so won't be useful for most readers of this article. They can go to the Arabic Dmoz if they need these links.

News

Wikipedia is not a news site and not a web directory, so all these links shouldn't be here. This isn't a place to find news.

Communities

  • Lebanese technology community
    • Just some sort of forum. Not relevant to an article about the country.

Blogs

  • Blogging Beirut Photography, the Environment, Human Rights, the Culture, the People of Beirut.
  • The Beirut Spring Commentary on local politics with a touch of humour.
  • Accross The Bay Sharp clearinghouse of information on Syria and Lebanon
I disagree with some of your choices, Angela. Wikipedia is not a web directory, but external references which can provide additional valuable information can be important to the reader. I 'strongly' disagree with the deletion of links to sites in languages other than English. The fact that *you* do not read Arabic doesn't mean that other English-speaking Wiki users are unable to read material in Arabic. Please use 'relevance' to the article as the criterion of selection. FrancescoMazzucotelli 16:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


I have reinstated a few links that Angela had removed. The ISF site now has a page in English. I also checked the correct link to the website of the Lebanese Armed Forces. I reinstated some links in the "news" category, because they can provide valuable information to the average reader. Nowhere in the Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not standards it is stated that an extensive list of sites is incompatible with Wikipedia's firmly established policies and standards. On the other hand, you can read that an extensive list is acceptable as long as it does not dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia (which is not the case here). Adding links to sites in languages other than English seems to be a fairly common feature in many Wikipedia articles. I highlighted such links with a language template such as (in Arabic) for sites in Arabic and (in French) for sites in French. FrancescoMazzucotelli 00:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted some comments that 194.126.24.2 had left in the Links section, after asking how endowed was John Holmes.

Please leave the (in Arabic) language template for sites in Arabic only. FrancescoMazzucotelli

Why is the Lebanese embassy in the US an external link? Are links to other Lebanese embassies to be added? 203.206.2.245 16:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Anglo-American focus

I know it is English Wiki but (for me) it seems that UK/US/CommonWealth people simply cannot overcome their prejudice. Yes, in vast numbers of English-speaking media the attacks are called terrorist ones. However some editions of the article were quoting them without the proper tag and got reverted. The fact that the majority of editors here do not understand Arabic does not automagically mean the other's point is wrong. Remember - for Arabs the English is not an easy language and not too many are able to contribute at the level one would expect. Please do not alienate them.

Meanwhile the section for the climate went deleted just as collateral damage. Maybe other editors do not agree with political position of 130.54.130.228 but the Weather/Climate section of his last two edits was just fine.

I was looking to find information about the country and got a lot of politics. There are links above each section. Why cant the whole history (Phoenicians, Alexander the Great, Romans, Arab Halifate, Otoman Empire, and 20th century Arabs) be summarized within one screen and the rest to be moved in linked articles? If there is too much information one can even spun off from "History ..." another articles for "Civil War" and/or "Cedar Revolution".

Is it so hard to quote both positions in a tone as neutral as possible. The article is getting more reverts than edits, while readers like me are trying to filter out the POVs and find the truth. I am not going to touch anything in order to avoid reignited edit wars, and am appealing to your dignity and neutrality.

Regards, Goldie (tell me) 18:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Bekaa

I've heard the Bekaa's #1 crop 1975 on was hashish. Mention it? Trekphiler 06:25, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

Shouldn't the little curled up bit on the right side of the coat of arms be white, the same colour as the piece of the shield that's curling over? Osgoodelawyer 14:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Licensing

I haven't been able to find a definite, uncopyrighted source for Image:Lebanese_COA.png. Could someone look into the problem? --Tom Edwards 14:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it could be marked as fair use. CG 15:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
As far as I understand fair use, we would need to know the purpose of the piece's existence first. But can you even claim copyright on something like a flag, even if you drew it? --Tom Edwards 16:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Grammar

Would anybody object if I ran through this article with a fine comb to purge it of its few but noticeable grammar errors? paragon 02:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No, not at all. After all, one of Wikipedia's mottos is be bold! --Khoikhoi 03:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok. Here goes... First of all, this paragraph is vague (which isn't really a grammatical error but is important to note nonetheless):
After the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, Lebanon became home to more than 110,000 Palestinian refugees who had fled from Israel. More Palestinian refugees arrived after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and Black September, and by 1975 numbered more than 300,000, led by Yassir Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). During the early 1970s difficulties arose over the increase of Palestinian refugees in the south, and full-scale civil war broke out in April 1975, leaving the nation with no effective central government.
Furthermore, the sentence in bold is especially confusing because "led by Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization" is unclear. What did he lead? the arrival of the refugees? the Palestinian military forces? their governance? I'm changing it to "More Palestinian refugees arrived after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war and Black September. By 1975 they numbered more than 300,000 with Yassir Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in charge of their political and military activities."
Also, "difficulties arose" is a heck of a way to gloss over the causes of a war. Usually, the causes of a war are its most important and most studied aspect. I know that this is not a "main page" for the civil war but I still think that these causes should be given a little more attention.
I believe more attention should be paid to the internal battles between the Aoun and Gemayel camps at the end of the war. Too often this war is described as Muslim versus Christian. Often, that was not the case. Looking at the Ta'if we know that there are 18 recognized national groups that fall under Islam and Christianity. And, at different times Islamic groups were battling each other, as were Christian groups killing each other.
More to come...
paragon 04:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! --Khoikhoi 04:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Appalling article

The entire section about the war is terribly written. It is disjointed, fragmented, biased, uses too much rhetoric, and is extremely vague. I'm not qualified to update it myself, but I strongly recommend that the article is flagged as a concern. As it stands it is an insult to the conflict it describes, never mind the lives people lost in it.

Here here. There is a lot of shit. Did you see the 1.5 million protest. Thats utter nonesence. Typical arab muslim retarded shit. Its easier to believe that the planet is a square than this terrorist filth,


This is because it is edited and moderated by people with israeli interest, not lebanese interest. Wiki is always biased when you look at political/historical sections. Other areas are moderated more in line with NPOV, but anything to do with US/ISRAEL is often heavily pro US/ISRAEL and POV.


I believe that sentence in itself shows bias in the opposite direction, and I might point out that a number of people are striving to create an unbiased article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.240.108.49 (talk • contribs) .

Lebanon and the Middle East are being Balkanized

We Can See how the Middle East is being Balkanized

Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Caucasia, and the Middle East are being balkanized were everyone fights each other like in Yugoslavia. And who wins with fabricated ethnic disputes? Guess who!

This statment is made in relations to Iran but symbolizes what is happening to the entire region.

Israeli and U.S. intelligence are concentrating hard on Iranian minorities, because they have no military solution for this problem. They want to disintegrate Iran into a few countries like the Soviet Union and that is not going to happen. [1]

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Iran"

Certain forces want civil war in Lebanon and Iraq and the whole Middle East. Guess who!

Lebanese Resistance Against Israel

"I have not the capability to edit anything about the lebanese history, but why there is no word about the lebanese resistance against Israel ? i'd like ask the editor of this page to add something about it. Thank you" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.81.9.158 (talk • contribs) . --- comment moved from article.

BloggingBeirut.com

The site BloggingBeirut.com has been added to the references section several times, and subsequently removed by myself and others. I'm hoping we can reach a concensus on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of this link in the article.

My major concerns with adding this link are:

The site does appear to have some nice photographs, and seems to be updated relatively frequently, so I'm hoping we can reach concensus on whether to add it or not. I'm going to be removing it in the meantime. George Saliba 08:14, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

This link was added by ananonymous user. Here we call it here a Link spam. The blog if it wasn't a major and renown one can't be used as a source in Wikipedia. Therefore the link is unnecessary. CG 09:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear CG, if by Major blog, you mean a blog that is listed in the first page of just about every Google search of Lebanon and Beirut (you must understand how Google works if you are to understand the significance of this), then I advise you to retract your words. Thank you. And no, I'm not anonymous. -finkployd
Is there are directory of Lebanon related blogs that we could link to instead? This way we don't have to play favorites. If there is no existing directory of Lebanon blogs, maybe a separate wikipedia page called "Lebanon Weblogs" is in order. How is this handled for other countries? This isn't a situation that is unique to the Lebanon article I suspect. --Ben Houston 13:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I like this idea. I'm not sure what form it is best to take, as I'm quite new to Wikipedia still, but it sounds good on its face. I'm curious what finkployd's thoughts on this are. George Saliba 01:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Interesting idea, I concur with your thoughts George and Ben. Bloglists do exist, and a Wikipedia bloglist might have more credibility, so it's a good idea. However, what I've been told by visitors to BloggingBeirut.com, is that their experiences with the site have given them a much more realistic view of Lebanon [avoiding the propaganda in newspapers and the touristific sites]. The purpose behind the site was to expose Lebanon as it is, and it has succeeded in doing that. Furthermore, with 300+ unique visitors a day, and growing, it's reaching quite a many people from around the world. Since I'm not making a penny off of it, and I'm hosting it on my own servers, with high res photos and all that, and it's not propaganda, I'd imagine I have a case for some form of altruism. What I'm trying to get at, is that exposure to such a site has been nothing but a positive contribution to raising awareness about the Lebanon that few see and fewer speak about. So why not allow it to grow further, and reach more. After all, I don't even identify myself, so it's not a matter of personal fame. -finkployd
I still haven't had a chance to take a look at adding a List of Lebanese Blogs to Wikipedia, so if anyone does please post about it. The problem with blogs in general is they have single authors, with single points of view. When I read your statements like "more realistic view of Lebanon [avoiding the propaganda in newspapers and the touristific sites]" and "it's not propaganda, I'd imagine I have a case for some form of altruism", this causes me concern. The NPOV principle of Wikipedia may just cover articles, but when you link to blogs with singular authors you run the risk of exposing singular points of view. I'm not saying that your blog has a point of view, and I can understand that you don't believe you expose a point of view, but you always run that risk of such thing when you only have one person composing and screening work. George Saliba 05:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'm the author of the site, and here's my take: I have yet to find a real source of Lebanese photojournalism on the web. All the Lebanese photography that I've seen has either been touristy, outdated, or just plain redundant. While the site is a blog, it is by no means a personal one, particularly as fewer than 1% of my posts are notably personal - the vast majority present some part, some alleyway, some perspective of Lebanon, through the lens of my camera. So Lebanon has a Temple of Jupiter, The Cedars, and Downtown... but I ask you, and I expect sincerety in your answer, is this really the essence of Lebanon? What is manyakeh, where is el Mechmech, do Lebanese celebrate Christmas (how?), what about Lebanese architecture, what about dating in lebanon, ski slopes?, et al. If you wanted to learn about Lebanon, not its history, its geography, or its politics, but Lebanon as Lebanese live it, I challenge you to find a more relevant site than BloggingBeirut.com Try googling for Manyakeh, or for Beirut International Marathon, or Sunset Beirut, or Ruins Beirut, or Jezzine Photos, or Fakra photos, or Gemmayze photos, or Brummana photos, or Chekka photos, or Beirut Air Pollution, or Lebanon Quarries [to name a few] -finkployd
On another note, could someone please tell me how this link, listed in the references: http://photos.eisenbach.at/voyages/lebanon/ is considered more appropriate than BloggingBeirut.com?
I'm not sure that it does. If it doesn't, feel free to remove it. George Saliba 05:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you on this. However, I would much rather see you publish some of your wonderful images into the Lebanon article, and articles about each of the subjects you listed than link to a personal blog (by personal I mean having a single author, not necessarily that every post is about you). Or maybe creating a gallery of all your images and linking to that rather than your blog? George Saliba 05:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Since my arguments have not been disputed for over five days, I am assuming a consensus has been reached, and will be re-adding BloggingBeirut.com to the list. pax -finkployd

Hmm, I only count 3 days since I first posted here on the 9th. Regardless, I very much think that no concesus has been reached, as the only one who seems to believe that your article still belongs on the Lebanon page is you (or if anyone else does, they haven't posted about it yet). I'll let someone else make the decision to remove it or not however. George Saliba 05:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
George, you have to excuse me for I do not sleep much, so I count nights as days ;) Thank you for your comments. I'll get back to your shortly, as I must get some sleep now.

I agree with Ben Houston that we could create a list of Lebanon-related blogs, although I share the concerns of George Saliba as most of them espouse very strong points of view. This blog in particular may be interesting, but I wouldn't include it as a main reference in the Links section. However, the material is interesting, so I hope that finkployd will be bold and use it in some of the Wikipedia Lebanon-related entries. The "updated daily" comment is irrelevant and sounds like an advertisement, so I am going to delete the final line. FrancescoMazzucotelli

Sights and Sounds: Updating the Main Page

Sorry I removed the previous section added by me, I will update the Tourism section that I created in the main article with objective data from the old section removed here. LebanonChild 22:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


10452km2

Can someone add something about this phrase or state of mind in military ranks (and other people) of Lebanon?

History section

This part of the article is massively long considering there is a subarticle devoted to it, I didn't check too deeply but there seems to be much replication in parts between these two articles. -- Sfnhltb 22:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I would like to expand the part of the History section related to the Ottoman period. Can I do it on the main page or are you suggesting to use the Lebanon/Temp page? Who is completely rewriting the article on that page? FrancescoMazzucotelli

I proposed the complete rewriting for everyone interested, so you are invited to contribute. About your addition to the History section, do wherever you like, but don't overwrite. Actually, the history section is very unbalanced: The Cedar revolution is hardly 6 months and it takes the biggest part of the section, while the 4000 years history are hardly one paragraph. CG 17:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes and most unfortunately the historical section (more pseudohistorical than anything else) is entirely POV and biased towards supporters of the Phoenician claim. It seems that a number of Christian Lebanese are still insistent on claiming that they are descendands of a ethnic "group" which has not been around from thousands of years. Furthermore, at the time in which the Phoenicians did in-fact exist, they were not a simple homogenous "race" of people. This sort of talk reminds me of a short, Austrian man with a square moustache and a curly lock of hair on his forehead, who swung his fist at crowds and proclaimed his people's ethnic superiority and descent from a long-extinct people. Be careful, the article is in need of serious repair. Euganeo 03:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

User 194.126.24.2

Can anyone verify anything this user puts in? This is the onylarticle he seems interested in, and he makes the same edits each day, most of which are PoV. I know next to nothing about Lebanon, but even I can recognise that most of his stuff is rather biased.HawkerTyphoon 22:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

You are correct. Almost everything the user has added is extremely biased, and very little of it has any factual backing at all. George Saliba 21:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the user is here to express his/her disgust for the daily newspaper As-Safir and his/her predilection for An-Nahar. It is a legitimate opinion, but this is not the right place to express it. Is it so difficult to understand? FrancescoMazzucotelli 03:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

In addition the user repeatedly changes the name of the President to "puppet President Debile Lahouss" (a politically-biased insult I believe), and incorrectly swaps the population balance (minority Christian to majority Christian). I've reverted back his changes, again. George Saliba 10:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Skiing in Lebanon

I think it would be a useful thing in the tourism section to mention that Lebanon has ski resorts that are attracting more and more tourists. I don't have too much information on this, but I think it still should be mentionned. A useful link to be added may also be www.skileb.com . Cheers

Are Lebanese Arabs?

I've ran into some people who argue the converse. Due to their phoenician descent and the major christian population, they say, the Lebanese shouldn't be considered Arab at all. Any credibility behind such claims? --195.229.242.54 04:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really. Arabs vary anyway and it's based upon the language they speak anyway. For example, many people of Berber descent in Algeria claim to be Arabs, but aren't likely to have Arab ancestry, that is from Arabia. The Lebanese probably do descend quite a bit from the Phoenicians as well as other invaders, but it's just too complicated to really designate them non-Arabs since many Lebanese will also gladly claim to be Arabs. It's usually the Christians who are more inclined not to though. Tombseye 05:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


NO..Lebanon is an Arab country..but the people are like Iran,Afghanistan,Pakistan,Turkey.. Arabs are Semites..the others are Indo-European or Eurasian... All the dark swarthy "Italian" looking people of Europe are NOT Arabs..or Jews/Hebrews(<-the people not the religion) or Gyspsies. In the Middle East..many Indo-Europeans are Muslim and speak Arabic..but that alone doesn't make one an Arab.. Matter of fact they are unwanted by the Arabs and often attacked and/killed..they hate eachother This is why so much conflict in the Middle East and western people don't understand it..One group is seen as white(Aryans,Persians,Indo~europeans)..while the other is more of "ethnic" blood..kinky hair, darker skin..they are the opposite of us.. the dark ones are the "good" people while the whites invaded and claimed everything including the religion and tried to Europeanized everything..they are seen as negatives or the bad people. From Arabs point of view..Europe was Godless until after contact with Asia..and today they worship themselves and worldly goods in vain.--4.153.29.26 14:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)Bhagi


OK OK, sorry my arab-friend, but you are complitely mistaken! first the arabs or semits are as well Indo-European !! Lebanese are Arabs like Portuguese or Spanish are Latins. Second the holy Koran teaches us to have respect for other people even if there religion is not the same! There are not bad or good people ! that's just crap ! you talk just like the most stupid of all politicians in this world " G.W.Bush" ! Excuse me but go and read the koran again. "especially " Surat el Bakra" where god teaches us the truth about the pad of god and his people. Da Silva

Look Lebanese speak Arabic and are considered contemporary Arab peoples. They are also of mixed ancestry which also includes Arab tribes. They Phoenicians themselves were only a coastal Aramaic people. Aramaic is the key word. Palestinians and vast areas of Syria were all Aramaic. Aramaic people were and are a Semetic people related to the Arabs and very similiar. As for the Lebanese phenotype it is very similar tothe Iranian, Greek, Turkish, Palestinian, and Syrian because of the shared ancestry and ethnic diffusion over the centuries.

69.196.164.190

Romanization

From "Politics" section:

"This arrangement is part of the "National Pact" (al Mithaq al Watani)"

Can someone who knows Arabic add the Arabic for al "ithaq al Watani"? thanks.--Fox Mccloud 21:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Al Mithaq Al Watani means "the National Pact".--Edz 18 17:52, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Notre-Dame university?

"Lebanon also hosts several prestigious universities, including the Lebanese University , The American University of Beirut, The Université Saint-Joseph, The Lebanese American University, and The Notre-Dame University".

The Notre-Dame university? I have lived in Lebanon my whole life and I don't think I have ever heard of it. Furthermore I don't know anyone who has enrolled in it. I think that if that's considered prestigious, another 30 universities can be added to the list.

Yes actually there is a notre-Dame unversity and it's better known as the NDU. As for the 30 other universities, I dont think they would be as prestigious as the ones mentioned (although I would add the Balamand university). --Edz 18 17:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"Tail wags"?

I consider myself a fairly clever guy who is generally familiar with sayings, but what does this mean? If I knew what relationship this saying was meant to illustrate, I'd change it to something more appropriate; however, I do not know how hizbollah relates to Lebanese policy, so I cannot even caution a guess as to what "tail wagging" could possibly mean. In fact, this is the only mention of Hizballah in this article, and there is only brief, incidental coverage of Hizballah in the politics of Lebanon article.

For the sake of clarity, formality, and NPOV--since this term almost certainly carries some sort of connotation--can someone fix this? Either Hizballah's role as a "tail wagger," whatever that is, needs to be explained using more conventional language or this passing mention of Hizballah needs to be removed. I suspect that the former would be more appropriate, but I lack the subject knowledge to fix this particular case of poor, informal wording. If this has not been addressed in a few days, I'll take a whack at it, but it's best that someone else do it.--Smallwhitelight 12:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

map is too smalll!

subject says it all, it's hard to keep the middle east countries apart on this tiny map.

Lebanon's Name

The name Lebanon does not derive from Arabic. Long before Arabic became the dominant language of the region, the land was known in Hebrew as Levanon, from the Hebrew root Lavan meaning white. Clearly LVN is a common root in semitic languages, but to suggest it derives from Arabic is misleading. I have looked up the colour "white" in Arabic and it seems to be "Abyad" but in Hebrew it is Lavan.

Not sure what you're trying to say.. Arabs are Hebrews..before Islam..they where Jews, Now anyone can convert and not only become a Jew but claim land that isn't meant for them. All Hebrews spoke Aramaic..the changes in language..I guess is "progress" umm something is always lost in the translation.

Er...

Arabic has more than one word for white you know. For example Laban and Haleeb are names given for Milk.

Lebanon

This is the article about Lebanon. Everything to do with Lebanon, not just politics and history. The current Israeli attack doesn't really belong in this article. Of coures, if in a year's time or even six months' time it looks like it was an important turning point in Lebanese history, then it can go in; but at the moment it doesn't look like that. There are all sorts of more important things that aren't covered or are skimmed over. Let's keep a sense of proportion here, and avoid the idea that "it just happened, so it must go in the article". Take a look at the United Kingdom article for a far more professional and balanced approach to dealing with historic events, recent and otherwise. Palmiro | Talk 13:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Like i said.

In response to "Er..". I am no expert in Arabic, and I am sure you are right that there is more than one word for white, that is why i said the root LVN is likely to be common to all semitic languages.

Oops!

I think I'm dangerously close to the three revision rule here, if not in technical violation of it. If I have violated it, I apologize. I'm removing myself from editing this article for 24 hours so that I don't run afoul of this rule. -- SwissCelt 02:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Question

why is lebanon's recent military history listed before its statistics and cultural information? I realize they had a major impact on shaping the nation but it is somewhat insulting. -- (Zerton 17:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC))

Israeli terror attack 1968

Seems to me that the 1968 Israeli surprise terror attack on the Lebanese airport and blowup 13 civilian aircraft should be at least mentioned as the first time Israel attacked the country.

this article is supposedly being completely redone so maybe it will be inculded next time

I changed the phrase "Aramaic" to "Semitic" because there is much evidence from Ancient Egyptian texts and others, that long before Aramaic was the dominant language of the area, the land was known by many different forms based on the root LBN.

POV

Since this is a talk page, and not an article that I'm contributing to, I'd like to hereby express a POV biased towards the innocent people of Lebanon, including a friend who might not talk to me one day when I log into my Messenger account. [5][6] Dessydes 18:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Please focus on the article. This isnt a chat room. Ronan.evans 02:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The Israeli-lebanon conflict premices and timeline have to be done correctly. It is full of errors.

The Israeli-lebanon conflict premices and timeline have to be done correctly. It is full of errors or bias. If anyone of objective can apply for the job, that would be nice.

Re Lebanese Rocket Attacks

I strongly believe the rocket attacks should be left out of the article, as it detracts from the main focuse of what the article should be about - the city itself - and is only leading to what appears to be continuous vandalism of the page by both sides trying trying to present their point of views. Perhaps when the current conflict has resolved itself a small note can be added, but I think at the time being it should be removed. [edit]

I Agree with the above posting. However here is the status of Hizbullah amongst Non Americans

Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization. Only some countries like the United States say so, NOT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY many countries call Israel a fascist state. These countries include non Muslim countries as well. So should we refer Israel as a fascist state too in wikipedia.

Do you hear what goes on from Fox news; The Jewish owned press in many countries refer to Hezbollah as a terrorist organization

Much of the Western News media is Jewish owned. In other non Jewish owned media Jews are predominant in the higher echelons of management. It is here we hear Hezbollah referred as a terrorist organization. The Bush Blair agenda also refer to Hezbollah as terrorism, but wikipedia does not follow the agenda of political leaders even if they are from high and mighty countries.

The BBC used to refer to Hezbollah as a terrorist organization until the readers challenged the BBC to prove it. Now the BBC started now to refer to Hezbollah as a militant organization.

The US Government actually calls Palestinians fighting the military boot of Israel as terrorists. It calls the resistance in Iraq terrorist. I call Iran terrorist. Russia was called the evil empire by Ronald Reagan. However the CIA with their rendition flights and torture programs is just called a Agency [edit]

If we follow the Americans and call Hizbullah terrorist then The Israel Air force pilots are Surgeons

What do we call the people who drop the huge daisy cutter bombs from F16s on children the Jewish press should call them surgeons as they make surgical strikes, and give employment to hundreds of Arab surgeons?

ALSO SOLDIERS ARE NEVER KIDNAPPED. IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE SOLDIERS ARE ALWAYS CAPTURED YOU CAN KIDNAP A CIVILIAN BUT NEVER A SOLDIER

ISRAEL HAS OVER A THOUSAND KIDNAPPED CIVILANS FROM LEBONON IN ITS JAILS AND HAS CAPTURED MANY HIZBULLAH SOLDIERS

Israel has over fourteen thousand Palestinians in detention for many years. Most of these can be said to be kidnapped as they are kept without trial

[edit]

We Jews unlike the Nazis do not distort or rewrite history, we also must not get emotional about the facts

While not going into the rights or wrongs, of why the Arabs of Isarel fled to the Lebanon. The fact remains that all Northern Irael cities are now a Jewish city. We will not try and pretend the Arabs did not exist and deny their existence. We have our own Holocaust deniers so what happened did happen and nothing can reverse it and we do not deny we forced them out. Haifa is now a beautiful city of Jews from Germany and America. Israel is an immigrant country and nearly all the population are first generation or second generation immigrants. We know we did not move into an empty land, nobody can deny this, the refugee camps of the Palestinians with 2.5 million refugees bear testimony to the fact that the land was not empty when we moved in. But all this is in the past. Three are many wrongs in History look at the plight of the Red Indians, Black slaves transported from Africa, AND of course our own Holocaust. Fifty years ago IS in the past, its history, FULL STOP.

Ben Cohen [edit]

True enough Ben, The past IS over, but hopefully we can all grow by heeding its warnings. The chain of associated events (and some unassociated) that you cite all have one thing in common - the slaughter of innocent people. Lebanon as an independant state is suffering such a slaughter RIGHT NOW, as i type. That the state of Lebanon is used as a pawn by groups who's main interest is to continue the conflict, does not really justify the slaughter of innocents, no matter how much political spin is used. At the moment both your country and mine (the U.K.) are behaving shamefully and as citizens our aquiescence simply adds to the injustice. To use an historical simile, we are guilty of averting our eyes as the state machinery is used against civilians, were this the weimar republic, we all know where that can lead and that the only solution is to act with a conscience in favour of humanity. DavidP 14:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be satire? Jews are the biggest propagandists out there, even more so then the soviets were. You are waging a religious war for the sake of a few metres of land you stole from the arabs anyway. The fact Israeli military sources told the civilians to leave the area, then targetted airstrikes on them on bridges and roads out when people fled in terror was no differant to the behaviour of the Nazis in Eastern Europe. It wouldnt surprise me if the UN outpost was taken out so Israels own einzatzgroupen and torture squads can move in and rape and pillage anyone surving. Israel is a terrorist nation, anyone that supports it, is a terrorist... by your own logic of saying the same of lebanese. The only jews I have any respect for, are those that have publically stood out and decried what the zionist serpent has been up to. To those guys, kudos, you have proved yourself worthy of using the term humanity. To the remaining 90%, you are shekel loving racist zionazis, and your days are numbered. Your sickening, corrupt, society destroying behaviour in America and Europe is unforgivable. Surely as a people you realise that the reason you have been pushed out of every nation you ever tried to emigrate to throughout history was because of your selfish greed, corruption and barbaric treatment of others for personal gain. You are an abomination that blights this planet and it sickens me I have to share it with the likes of you.

Yeah Yeah

Your neighbour slaps your kid in the face. You come home in the evening, start your bulldozer and flatten his house,killing them and a dozen other families. On your way back you also destroy a grocery store and run over an old lady just to sooth yourself. What Israel is doing now is pretty much the same thing. It just makes Hezbollah's racket attacks look more legitimate


'BIG mistake'----

Israel is making a BIG mistake. The israeli bombings only provided hezbollah with more popular support. At first the lebanese people hated hezbollah for this "act of war" because it utterly destroyed a very promising touristic season which the poor lebanese people waited for desperately. I myself wanted israel get rid of those F***** chiite extremists who do nothing but ignore my country's interests and undermine my governement's authority. But is barbarism really the way to do it?

Weapons Used In Lebanons Destruction

This weaponry for the above destruction was supplied to the terrorists by company called Raytheon, which is based in Massachusetts. They manufacture the Tomahawk missile, the Sidewinder, a number of other high-tech missiles. These missiles have very sophisticated targeting components -- heat-seeking, they're interfaced with GPS for much targeted attacks.

Lockheed Martin is another company it supplies the F16 Aircraft to the terrorist and other systems to deliver these weapons.

Boeing is another major corporation. They manufacture all sorts of planes: the F-18 fighter plane, the F-14.

Last week the United States decided to sell $120 million worth of jet fuel to the terrorist Washington has been asked to speed up a shipment of precision bombs sold as part of a deal with the terrorists last year. They are rushing to send these

The funding for the terrorists is more then three billion dollars a year, It comes directly from U.S. taxpayers in the form of foreign military financing, which is transferred to the terrorists, and then turns right back around and goes to Lockheed Martin, Boeing or Raytheon.

  • Maybe Walmart, Exxon and other "evil" companies are involved too, but that isn't really very useful to an encyclopedia article about Lebanon, is it? galar71 22:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for clarification

I came here for edification. After reading the information repeatedly, I found it difficult to identify exactly the opposing groups that were described in the section titled "Beginning of the War".

The text in question states.. "Initially, fighting began between these Palestinians (referred to as "anti-Lebanese militias" by some) and the indigenous Lebanese "leftists" (the communists and socialist parties). As the fighting intensified, the sides involved became more distinct. On one side was the Christian resistance led first by Bachir Gemayel and later by Samir Geagea. The other side comprised a coalition of Palestinian refugees, Sunni Muslim, and Druze forces..."

I'm confused. Was the Christian resistance part of the Palestinian side, or the Lebanese side? The first sentence describes the Lebanese as "communists and socialist parties", but later indicates that the Christiancs are the opposite side of the Palestinians.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but that's why I came here to learn. Clarification would be helpful. Thanks.

Semi-protection

I have semi-protected this article. This means that it cannot be edited by anonymous users or by newly-created accounts. This has been necessary because of anonymous users (or perhaps just one) consistently ignoring our NPOV policy. - Mark 01:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


User Mark Above posting "semi - protection" : Stop acting like an officious Policeman of Wikipedia

I note that you are a law student. Well I think that your protection of the Lebanon page is not only restrictive of the ethos freedom of expression of wikipedia but ultra varies to your role as administrator of the wiki project.

Naturally the evens in Lebanon are causing considerable world wide interest as well as an humanitarian crises this also is the cause of interest in the wikipedia page on Lebanon, two countries seem to be in midst of a war.

Wikipedia editors from divergent points of view edit this page with an incresed frequency as it is topical news. By frequent edits from both sides a common consensus is arrived at which becomes the prevailing concensus.

You have now imposed an almost draconian censorship of this wiki page doing it at this time I feel makes you unfit to be an administrator of wikipedia because its an abuse of power, I have recorded this event against your record for the community to judge I have had e mail from Lebanese citizens who now cannot contribute to this page. The only mitigating circumstance is your inexperience and immaturity.

You may be aware that there was a campaign by supporters of Israel mostly Jewish e mail lobby associations to distort the content of wikipedia to a Jewish point of view.

This campaign usually follows Israel and USA foreign policy. The Jewish Wikipedia lobby demonize Iran Syria and Hezbollah while justifying the actions of Israel foreign policy. Removal of any adverse editorial on the founders of Israel demonizing the leadership of Arab countries etc.

There is also subtle distortion of history particularity in regards to the Palestinian conflict. In order to counter this organized and as such formidable onslaught on the neutrality of wikipedia Volunteers are keeping a record of hundreds of such pages and a report will be published later.

It is essential that wikipedia reflects a true world view

Even though you seem to have a Jewish name I trust you are not part of this campaign.

I couldn't disagree more. Your comments are anti-semitic and the edits are for the most part horrifically PoV. You can't demoise anything on Wikipedia without sources - and I'm afraid to say that two entire continents view Hezbollah as a terorist group. Israel's actions are not justified, but neither is calling the Israelis what several ip addresses have called them. If eople feel strongly enough that Israel needs badmouthing, this is not the place to do it. HawkerTyphoon 12:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

(Cross-posted from User talk:Mark):

Hello. I recognise that it is very important to ensure an accurate and unbiased reporting is made of the events going on in the Middle East. Reports of any particular group conspiring to subvert this neutral point of view policy concerns me greatly, I assure you.

If you are the contributor who made edits such as this and this, then I am afraid you are the very reason the article has been semi-protected. Calling a particular party in a conflict 'terrorist' is generally frowned upon on Wikipedia because it prima facie violates our neutral point of view policy. It implies a value judgment that the so-called 'terrorist' is inherently in the wrong. We don't want a Jewish or a Lebanese point-of-view for our article. We want a neutral point of view.

Also, if you were responsible for the above-linked edits, you should also be made aware that edit summaries like "HELP LEBANON THE JEWS ATTACK THIS PAGE MR DANIEL IS ONE HE WISHES THIS PAGE NOT TO MENTION THE HOLOCAST TAKING PLACE HE DISTORTS THE HISTROY OF THE CONFLICT THE JEWS ARE OUT IN FORCE CHANGING WIKIPEDI" are not appropriate.

You refer to Wikipedia's process of reaching a common consensus that resembles a neutral point of view. This is a fair representation of how it ordinarily works. This semi-protection of the article simply means that only established Wikipedia editors may edit the article. We have many hundreds (probably thousands) of active, established editors. I trust that they will be able to help keep our article on Lebanon neutral and unbiased in the short term before the semi-protection is lifted. If, however, you feel in the future that you have found such systematic pro-Israeli bias has been allowed to permeate the article and shift it away from a neutral point of view, I encourage you to bring your concerns to me, in addition to your many other avenues of bringing community attention to the matter.

The article on Lebanon will likely be unprotected in time. When it does become unprotected, I ask that you remember our neutral point of view policy. If you wish to counter a bias one way, it is not good to simply twist the article around and skew it completely the opposite way. The only way is to present it from a neutral, middle ground.

In relation to your keeping a record of my actions in relation to this article, I welcome this move. Accountability for administrative actions on Wikipedia is not a bad thing.

Should you have any more concerns or queries, I am readily contactable on my talk page, or via the "Email this user" link. - Mark 13:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Country Codes

I would like to see the Country Infobox modified to include the various ISO-3166 codes (ISO-2, ISO-3, ISO-NR) and the FIPS code.

== Impending deletion of Lebanese musician page ==

Some editors here might care that the (terrible) page on Nourhanne has been flagged for deletion; improving it (a lot) would save it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 21:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop calling Hezbullah terroist: the view of the people of Lebanon

We Lebanese, do not regard the resistance forces of Hizbullah as militias, as referred to in the UN resolution, let alone any kind of terrorist organisation. Our resistance accomplished a major national mission by forcing Israeli troops to withdraw from most Lebanese territory in 2000 after 22 years of occupation. Since then there has been intense national debate about how Lebanon can defend itself in future once the resistance has achieved the liberation of the remaining occupied Lebanese land (the Shaba'a farms area) and the release of Lebanese detainees.

The Lebanese people's support for the resistance was demonstrated by the fact that Hizbullah and its allies won more seats in the 2005 elections, following the Syrian withdrawal, than when Syrian troops were still in the country. That is why Israel is now targeting civilians.

In the context of the continued occupation, detention of prisoners and repeated Israeli attacks and incursions into Lebanese territory, the capture of the Israeli soldiers was entirely legitimate. The operation was fully in line with the Lebanese ministerial declaration, supported in parliament, that stressed the right of the resistance to liberate occupied Lebanese territory, free prisoners of war and defend Lebanon against Israeli aggression. International law also allows peoples and states to take action to protect their citizens and territory. The Israeli onslaught is aimed not only at liquidating the resistance and destroying the country's infrastructure but at intervening in Lebanese politics and imposing conditions on what can be agreed.

NOT ALL LEBANESE SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS OF HEZBOLLAH. NOBODY GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO SPEAK IN THE NAME OF ALL LEBANESE.

The Speaker of Parliament, the head of the Druze, the President, Amal, the heads of the Orthodox Church, the COmmunist Party of Lebanon, Aoun, the Patriotic Movement, the relgious heads of the Sunni Muslims, the relgious heads of the SHia Muslims, and many more have all expressed full support for Hezbollah even Hariri Inc. and Jumbat, being the populasists they are have shut their critique. The majory, mean over 80% of Lebanon suppport Hezbollah and the Resistance to Israeli aggresion...

69.196.164.190

HMS Religh Poster

Greetings from Officers of the Lebanese resistance, we salute you and hope we never have to meet in the battlefield.


Isarel Prisoners

There are between 645 and 800 Arab prisoners held in "administrative detention" in sub-standard Israeli jails. None of these people have been accused, tried or convicted of any crime yet Israel continues to hold them in jail. This is one of the reasons for the current problems in Lebanon. When the world, particularly the UN wakes up to this abuse of human rights - they should demand the release of the non-convicted and it is probably likely that Hezbollah will release the soldiers held.


More On Israel prisoners

Held withouttrial and often kidnapped by force

lthough Israel's army is gradually transferring authority for jails over to civil authority, it still holds 1,078 prisoners, including 105 in administrative detention and 28 youths aged under 18, B'Tselem says.

Figures collated by Palestinians vary slightly from the Israeli tallies, but only slightly: the PLO's negotiations department says 9,400 Palestinians are currently in all Israeli jails, 800 of those in administrative detention.

Those small differences are as close as the two sides come to agreement on the issue of prisoners. While Palestinian officials call their detainees "political prisoners", Israel says that some 70% of those behind bars have "blood on their hands".

Palestinian officials also criticise the conditions inside Israeli prisons, describing them as "far below minimum standards"; Israel's prison authority says its security prisoners receive the "highest level" of treatment.


What is a

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon/Temp >??

Hopiakuta 02:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

2006 Events

1.5.1 Precursor to the violence.

I question the inclusion of this section which consists of 7 paragraphs, not one of which has anything to do with Lebanon! --DAG 00:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


Should this section really be included in an article on Lebanon and should it be titled 'precursor' when the two conflicts can be regarded as distinct? If we are going to claim that the killing of Palestinian officials and civilians was the precursor to this violence then we need to provide evidence of a causal link. Given that there are other factors leading to the conflict, such as the detention of prisoners, the focus on the events in Gaza seems inappropriate.

Current Situation

In this section there is tendentious usage and plain errors.

“On 12 July 2006, Hezbollah's armed wing militants crossed into Israel and captured two Israeli soldiers.” A fairer usage would replace “armed wing militants” with “militia”, because that is what they properly are. They fight in uniform, in organized formations, and have a recognizable command structure. Also, in the interest of fairness and even handedness, and to inform the reader, the sentence would benefit from a final clause explaining why, e.g. “... captured two Israeli soldiers, as a bargaining chip for the release of kidnapped Lebanese citizens.”

These “militants” are residents of Southern Lebanon and citizens of the Republic of Lebanon, and they and their ancestors have been there for centuries. To call them militants, given the seven bashings Lebanon has taken at Israel’s hands over the last 58 years, is gravely disrespectful to both them and to Wikipedia as a source of reliable information. “Militants” is an opinion, whereas militia is a fact.

“The indiscriminant and ineffective volley of Qassam, Katyusha and RAAD missiles from Southern Lebanon have only claimed the lives of over 30 Israelis, 2 Israeli Arabs and has wounded over 400 others.”

Notice the subtle distinction here: “30 Israelis, 2 Israeli Arabs.” Let me rephrase it: “30 Germans, 2 German Jews.” The Qassam missile is a home-made Palestinian rocket.

On political matters, and in particular matters related to Israel, Wikipedia is being used to peddle the same subtle disinformation as peddled by the pro-Israel international media.

The above posting is very good, I agree, there is raceism against the Arabs consider this extract from a wiki page on Haifa

"The city has been predominately Arab for the 800 years and pre-1947; however, over 85,000 Arabs fled to Lebanon. Haifa is now the home of a large Jewish population and a small Arab population as well as some members of the Bahia community who come and worship at their shrine located in Haifa. Arabs comprise approximately 10% of the population of Haifa. The Arab settlement in Haifa is subject to the City Council's policy of separate but equal development of both communities which gives Arabs their own schools and hospitals their own designated part of the city where these people live, moreover Haifa Arabs are allowed to build Mosques and have their own cultural centers, playgrounds etc".

The above article seems to say tat the people of Haifa are very fair Arabs are EVEN alowwed to have their own cultural centers and even mosques. Seprate and equal development was used by the South african government to justify apartheit. Israel is a racist state.

Bashing & Thrashing

2 Israel soldiers are captured so Lebanon gets a bashing, so now that 4 UN soldiers are killed should the world community give Israel a thrashing

Unprotection

I have removed the semi-protection from this article. I trust that contibutors to this article - anonymous and registered alike - will work together to present a neutral point of view in this article. - Mark 08:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but Israel was the one that crossed the border

Please look up where the ISraeli soilders were captured...it was in South Lebanon. Check http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24913&hd=0&size=1&l=e http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767 http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=FRA20060725&articleId=2813 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html http://uruknet.info/?p=m25034&hd=0&size=1&l=e http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

These links themselves have links to even more significant sources...

Also two of those sites are world famous for their work, by leading experts and adacemics. Two of those links also had other links on them, plus one of the verifications is The Agence France-Presse (AFP), one of the three largest news agencies in the world...not to mention the Associated Press and the Hindustan Times.


I also want you to note that the Israeli media has proven to be censored and used for propaganda purposes...all their reports of advancement into Lebanon have turned out to be bogus, plus their claims of a Saudi fatwa against Hezbollah.

Or even reading this says it all; http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291980307&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I noticed that there is a lot of pro-Israeli rhetoric on the site that is trying to give the world a false image of the attacks on Lebanon and Lebanese civilians.

God Bless 69.196.164.190

A reading of this Associated Press article would support the proposition that the Israeli soldiers were in fact captured in Southern Lebanon. Can the editors claiming that they were in fact captured in Israel (perhaps Rich Farmbrough, who placed that assertion into the article with a {{fact}} tag, and subsequently repeatedly removed this anonymous user's statements above from this talk page) provide sources for the proposition that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Israel? - Mark 04:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

A reminder of where we are

This is an encyclopaedia, not the soap box in Hyde Park for political grand-standing. If you can't discuss this issue without clenching your fists, don't contribute to the article.

Nice of you make that reminder...please remind all the Israeli editors. The truth is still the truth.

request

It is very clear that regarding a variety of issues, many of us are very opinionated, including myself. We, frequently, find ourselves posting our political perspectives on the articles.

I, hereby, request & propose that there would be one, or several, wikiprojects designed to be where we would debate. Each such debate page should be tied to similar debate pages, on similar issues. Each such page, should, as well, be tied to the corresponding article pages, in appropriate clusters.

In this format, pages describing Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, North Africa, Southwest Asia, as far as Bangladesh, Islam, energy-policy, et al, might all be connected to politic pages in various corresponding clusters.

How would you modify, evolve, this proposal??

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 06:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't there be considerable overlap with Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias? Although I think it's a nice idea myself. There isn't enough debates in WikiProjects. MichaelBillington 07:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


further: proposal

Why would you want to add more duties for that page & section when they are not even doing what they claim to be doing??

What I have proposed is quite different from the failed "mission" thereof anyhow. Although, when I had written, I had hoped that that fact would, in fact, be one of the many debates.

Overall, the purpose of what I'd written, & has been misinterpreted, was designed specifically to deal with the oft perceived problem on this

Lebanon

discussionpage. On this page, as well as many other pages tied to caustic-issue-articles, people frequently complain that the debate is off-topic, as attempting to settle the larger issue of the subject[s] of the articles, rather than correcting the articles directly.

Well, in that sense, your comment is not relevant to my proposal, nor is it, at all, relevant to

Lebanon.

Furthermore, regarding the failed page that you recommend, & all other related failed policy pages:

They have not diminished bias, discriminination, oppression, racism, classism, handicappism, sufficiemtly to make them worthy to me.

There is so much bias, such a deletion-inclination, that I discourage anyone from creating articles. Supposedly there is all of this about attempting editing first; however, that's rarely practiced. Only "good" people get to create.

Anyhow, that has little to do with my herein proposal, to which you do misleadingly respond.

My proposal had been that wherever difficult articles lead to spirrited political discussionpages, that those articles would lead to wikiprojects designed to accomodate that political-overload.

Now, if you would respond on-topic to that, & how it would affect the Lebanon-article, the Lebanon-discussion, & similarly political-articles, I would appreciate that. I am attempting to improve these by suggesting an outlet-project for some of this overflow.

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 14:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)



Israel is a tiny Jewish nation surrouded by wealthy large Muslim Arab nations.All it wants is to live quietly and alone in peace.Muslim terrorists hiding behind the are the progenitor of global disaster.All Hezbollah and Hamas had to do was return the hostages and this hell wouldn't have been unleashed.Israel is defending its border from the murderous bombs being launched from Lebanon.The Lebanese government couldn't stop Hizbollah,the UN couldnt do it,so Israel has to do it for themselves.

THAT IS RHETRIC AND UNTRUE....THE ATTAKS WERE PLANNED MONTHS EARLIER> EVEN THE JERUSALEM POST HAS LET IT SLIP. IT WAS ISRAELI SOILDERS WHO WENT INTO LEBANESE TERRITORY. IT IS ISRAEL THAT HAS FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS KIDNAPPED CITIZENS FROM ARAB COUNTRIES. YOU KNOW WHY THERE ARE LEBANESE PRISONERS IN ISRAEL BECUASE SOME REFUSED TO JOINT PROXY FORCES OF THE ISRAELI ARMY OR THEY HAD CELL PHONES.

YOu say you want peace, and I am sure a lot of Israelis do, but the Israeli government has done everything it can to hamper peace.

I think the page is biased when it refers to Hezbullah Kidnapping

There should be a netural point of view in this wiki article as the real kidnappers are from Israel as the foolowing will show Israel Kidnapping activities BEFORE the conflict.

ON JULY 28, 1989, a detachment of heavily armed Israeli commandos descended upon the southern Lebanese village of Jibchit. The time was 2 a.m. They burst into the home of Sheikh Abdul Karim Obeid, leader of the Hizbollah militia, beat up his wife, and shot dead a neighbour before bundling the Sheikh and two other men into a helicopter. One of those seized was a young man named Hashem Fahaf who had no connection to Hizbollah, the other was the Sheikh's bodyguard.

According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which carries a helpful if damning account of the kidnapping on its website, "Israel had hoped to use the sheikh as a card to affect an exchange of prisoners and hostages [held by Hizbollah] in return for all Shiites held by it."

So brazen was Israel's action that the United Nations Security Council unanimously passed a resolution (No. 638) calling for the "immediate safe release of all hostages and abducted persons, wherever and by whomever they are being held." Needless to say, Tel Aviv ignored the resolution. After all, kidnapping non-combatants, including minors, and holding them hostage, was an integral part of Israel's military strategy. In May 1994, Israeli soldiers abducted a prominent Lebanese businessman and former commander of the Shia Amal militia, Mustafa al-Dirani, and brought him into Israel. The aim of that kidnapping was to try and get information about the location of Ron Arad, an air force navigator who had been shot down over Sidon in 1986 during Israel's ongoing aggression against Lebanon.

Mr. Fahaf, whose presence Israel refused to recognise for years, spent 11 years in jail before the Supreme Court finally ordered his release. He was allowed to return home along with 18 other Lebanese nationals who — the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported in August 2003 — had been held "according to the official version ... as `bargaining chips' for Ron Arad". Two of those released had been kidnapped as boys and had grown into adulthood in captivity






____ __

Hopiakuta 15:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I do have innumerable problems with those two comments, in content & location; but, it does, specifically assist in proving my point.

Firstly, they are not signed: " ~ ~ ~ ~ ".

Hopiakuta 15:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, I do have a unique style, & many of you frequently punish me for my typing-style. But, are those style, or typographical-errors??

Third, I've been encouraging a way f/ this political-overflow to go, & actually assist the solutions implied: that is exactly the sort of comment that I would recommend to the sort of wikiprojects that I do propose.

Fourth, the political-content,

of the first one [somewhat on the second]:

Much of my ancestry is Jewish, I am, therefore, racially Jewish, culturally Jewish.

I do suppose that if Israel were to evolve, democratically, into whatever, then, well, the results are not very predictable.

However, if it would disappear via war, then Jews everywhere, including here, in [Alta] California, would be in huge trouble. If that would even seem close to occurring, then someone might begin constructing large ovens.

Someone might attempt to tattoo mogens & triangles, et al, on my forehead.

Then, I might be orderred to stand-in-line. With my disabilities, I am frequently reluctant to stand, anywhere. As for the ovens, I do suspect that this time around they might be microwave in style. With huge turntables in the middle. Hey, they might even be solar-powered.

So, that is merely one reason why wars frighten me. There are so many trillions of ways that wars frighten, terrify.

Aside from that, your comment is "off-topic", as I'd said.

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 15:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The USA has been duped of billions of dollars

Israel continues to receive billions of dollars as direct aid. Our country has donated more money to Israel than to any other country in the history of the world -- over $3.5 billion per year, everything included. If not for our extravagantly generous gifts to Israel, every family in America could afford a brand new Mercedes Benz. Surely the American people would be outraged if they realized their hard-earned money is being squandered and used to buy deadly armsin these difficult times.

In whatever way you can, please help shatter the myth that suuprt of Israel is in our interest. It is time we stop sacrificing America's welfare for the sake of Israel and spend our hard-earned dollars on Americans.

You might want to show some sources for your number—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.161.96.85 (talk • contribs) .

Does anyone sign this page??

More of the "off-topic":

Yes, that's true.

&, the money is not protecting Israel, nor Jews in [Alta] California.

It merely goes to military-corporations.

War brings terrorism, genocide,

& prison.

They are all the same.

Hopiakuta 15:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this correct??

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/jibchit >.

So many words, so many interpretations.

But, then there's the prospect of being marooned {maroon} in Maroun al-Ras.

Hopiakuta 15:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

We are all "fugitive slave[s]" of the military-industrial complex that commands that Arab & Jew play-out like bloody chessboard pawns.

Hopiakuta 16:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

PLease Visit [www.Uruknet.com]; the real reasons why Israel has attacked Lebanon

Read the articles about the new oil pipeline near Lebanon nd Syria, the article about the Russian plans for a naval base near the temrinal, and how the U.S. wanted to have a base near the pipeline to secure it for both ISraeli and American interests. Its nice to hear that there will be foreign troops in Lebanon maybe the U.S. will get its base after all.

READ THIS...then you will see why Israel is attacking Lebanon (not Hezbollah, but all Lebanon) and why the U.S. and Britain have savatoged all ceasefire agreements...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824

An article on the oil link with the Israeli attacks

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060728&articleId=2839

the Russian base in Syria

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060523&articleId=2508 The militarization of the area near the oil pipeline

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25004&hd=0&size=1&l=e

The murder of Hariri according to intelligence sources and his opposition to U.S. base in Northern Lebanon....the U.S, base was for securing the oil pipeline

http://www.rense.com/general63/aahi.htm The murder of Hariri according to intelligence sources and his opposition to U.S. base in Northern Lebanon

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25005&hd=0&size=1&l=e Lebanon as also a pretext for war in Iran, to secure Iranian oil too

69.196.164.190


Hi I am Lebanese

I am Lebanese muslim but message To the above Jewish poster. I will fight till my last ounce of breath to prevent what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany happening again.

REMEMBER those who side with the aggressor and care not for the plight for the WEak are those also who turned away when jews were taken to the Ovens

Remember what they said in Nazi Germany


First they came for the Jews and I was not one so I did not protest Then they came for the Intellectuals and I was not one so I did not protest then they came for the trade unionists and I was not one so I did not protest then they came for me and nobody protested as they were now none left to protest


Wow your Lebanese but your IP is from ISrael...cool!The above poster said nothing about violance against Jews...the post merely pointed out the real reasons Israel has attacked Lebanon...do not try and use the Holocause Card to much to make yourselves sound like victims. If you want to stop what the Nazis did again from happening again stop what is happening to the Palestinians!It is also funny all those cites want peace too. Please no Israeli propganda.


Some banned bombs dropped on Lebanon

After an emergency cabinet meeting last weekend, the Lebanese government accused Israel of using “internationally prohibited weapons against civilians.” Lebanese media reports stated that Israel used phosphorous incendiary bombs and vacuum bombs that suck up air and facilitate building collapses. The use of incendiary weapons against civilians has been banned by Protocol III to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons since 1980.

Jawad Najem, a surgeon at Tyre hospital, said patients had burns from phosphorous incendiary weapons. “Mahmoud Sarour, 14, was admitted to the hospital and treated for phosphorous burns to his face,” Najem said. Mahmoud’s 8-month-old sister, Maryam, suffered similar burns on her neck and hands when an Israeli rocket hit the family car. The children were with their father, mother and other relatives. Their father died instantly.

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili. Cham said the bodies of some victims were “black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else.”

Lebanese officials confirmed Israel’s use of cluster bombs in several areas in the south, including the towns of Blida, Hebbariyeh and Kfarhamam. There are fears that many more people, particularly children, could die from coming into contact with unexploded cluster bomblets. The Lebanese Daily Star said a senior official within the Lebanese Army informed it that the military issued “warnings to citizens in the places bombed by Israel not to get near or touch suspicious bodies, which might be unexploded cluster bombs.”



The massacre committed by Israel in Qana this morning shows the barbarity of this aggressive entity. It constitutes state terrorism committed in front of the eyes and ears of the world

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