Talk:Lebanese cuisine/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Editoneer (talk · contribs) 15:15, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Let's start with the problems.

Well-Written

• In the image, please link "spit", as a broad audience will understand the "to spit" verb.
• Minor misunderstanding but after "coast" put "zones".
• Try to give a short description of those fancy-named dishes as it won't made sense to a broad audience that doesn't know culinary terminology. (It is required as criteria so click this article).
• boys baking bread..., The people making the bread in the images aren't "boys" like in young males, they looks like adults and Wikipedia has a policy of gender-neutral language. If is a reason why males are allowed to bake bread please replace it to "Men" and mention why are men only allowed to bake bread. If isn't something specific, then just put "people".
• Please try to specify what "sauttéed" mean as it's not a common word. As it's still required in the GA criteria that links Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable.
• walnuts or dates, please specify what food is "dates".
• Supposed grape presses and jars from the Marriage at Cana, the first miracle attributed to Jesus, Located in Qana, Lebanon, "Supposed" is a Words to Watch, as it expresses doubt, please consider removing it or why is the claim unsure without putting "supposed" in it.

Verifiable

• Reference [1] just directs me to the site and I tried typing the reference in--- in a nutshell: Fail and possibly need more sources for the information above if it doesn't cover all the above.
• May [2] show the exact page that the source is based on?
• Arak, an anise-flavored liqueur, is the Lebanese national drink and usually served with a traditional convivial Lebanese meal. Another historic and traditional drink is Lebanese wine., reference required here.
• I can't read what is inside book [4], can you help me?
• This style of serving food is less a part of family life than it is of entertaining and cafés. Mezze may be as simple as raw or pickled vegetables, hummus, baba ghanouj and bread, or it may become an entire meal consisting of grilled marinated seafood, skewered meats, a variety of cooked and raw salads and an arrangement of desserts. Family cuisine offers also a range of dishes, such as stews (or yakhneh), which can be cooked in many forms depending on the ingredients used and are usually served with meat and rice vermicelli. Pita bread is a staple of every Lebanese meal, and can be used in place of a fork., add reference here, even if it sounds well-documented... references are required to avoid original research disputes and the image doesn't provide many information to cover up the whole pharagraph.
• Reference [6] doesn't mention anything about tapas, mezeluri, this information makes it look like original research.
• Although simple fresh fruits are often served towards the end of a Lebanese meal, there is also dessert, such as baklava and coffee. Although baklava is the most internationally known dessert, there is a great variety of Lebanese desserts., add reference here.
• Where in [6] mentions roasted nuts? Please show me.
• The assortments of dishes forming the mezze are generally consumed in small bites using a piece of Lebanese bread (Khubz, Pita) or a fork. As a family, it is made up of three or four dishes, but in the restaurant, the mezze can range from twenty to sixty dishes, as the varient combinations and dishes involved are plenty. Again from an outside view we can't tell if this is true. Actually scratch "outside view", we still need references here.
• [7] doesn't provide any link, I can't verify this.
• Desserts include pastries such as Aish as-Saraya, Qatayef, Basbousa, Harees, Kanafeh, baklava, Ka'ak, Sfouf and Maamoul. Lebanese ice cream is popular with its oriental flavors, including Amar al-Din made from dried apricots (can also be eaten as a snack); fresh fruits, and pistachio. Lebanese roasted nuts with a variety of different mixes and flavours can be eaten before, during and after meals. reference again.
• [8] doesn't provide any links.
• The Phoenicians of its coastal strip were instrumental in spreading wine and viticulture throughout the Mediterranean in ancient times. Despite the many conflicts of the region, the country has an annual production of about 6,000,000 cases of wine., reference missing strikes again.
• The tabel also requires references.
• Try to use that recipes link for "Dishes and ingredients".

Now I'm going to put it onhold, so you can fix those mistakes and also to have a type of rebuttal if something mentioned above isn't correct, after the said changes are done I will put it on 2ndopinion and I'm not sure as a beginner if I did everything right. Editoneer (talk) 17:13, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oh my good good I decided to bother, whole content is plagiarized, this can't be accepted on Wikipedia try to word it differently. Demonstrated by this, this and this, try to fix this, phrase it differently or it just gets denied. Editoneer (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Drive-by comments from User:Chiswick Chap

Well before you panic, do note that https://tourismobserver.blogspot.com/2017/11/lebanese-food-always-very-enticing-and.html was presumably created in November 2017. The Wikipedia article existed long before that, and contained many of the same phrases, in October 2017, so it certainly copied from us, not the other way around.

The second site, Lebanese cuisine @948663539, also gets a very high score, 93.6%. It has been around since 2010 so I've just checked the December 2009 version of the Wikipedia article, and again, many of the old phrases still match. So, I suspect plagiarism isn't the problem.

However, three list sections: "Dishes and ingredients", "By region", and "Beverages" together take up a very large percentage of the article, and are wholly uncited - I make that at least 99 missing citations. If you believe the sections are necessary for the article, I'd suggest a quick fail as this is a substantial issue, unless you have a highly energetic nominator. If you think the lists aren't necessary then they should be swiftly deleted, and replaced with a paragraph or two of properly-cited text on each of those three subjects. That too might prove a substantial task but it's not unimaginable for a hardworking nominator.

The "Lebanese wine" section (why is this not named "Wines"?) is not as bad, but a) I can't see any reason to attempt an A-Z list of all possible national wines (imagine doing that for France or Italy); b) it's not alphabetic; c) it's not fully cited. It's a pretty idea but it would make a lot more sense as a stand-alone list article, i.e. it should be split out from this article, leaving a paragraph or two of properly-cited text about the types and quality of the wine in general, with maybe an example of the oldest or a prizewinning vineyard or two. It smells much too much of Advertising at the moment.

Finally, why is there a link to Recette Libanaise? Looks to be a commercial site. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Ahh, thank you for showing me. Anyways, I do agree that "Dishes and ingredients", "By region" and "Beverages" to be deleted as it's not cited fully and just be replaced with a paragraph that shows what type of food and with the paragraph there... at first thought, I wondered if the nominator could just conveniently source all of them in a single go but now that I think about it... it will surely link the same reference all over again which seems to give a weird feeling that might be a big plan to advertise the site. Editoneer (talk) 17:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Response by nominator

Thank you Editoneer and Chiswick Chap for your helpful comments and perspective. I have sourced the majority of said criticisms regarding lack of citations and am now trying to work on the recipes itself and the dishes and ingredients and the regional variants section. I think keeping the dishes and ingredients section is beneficial as I have sourced the majority of the red links and a lot of them already have wiki pages for reference. I think others and I need to work on a introductory paragraph or two explaining and expanding on the dishes and regional variations instead of having two different headers, before listing the dishes as shown on Welsh cuisine, albeit not as many. I think this will take a while, especially as the cuisine is so large for such a small county and the variations have multiplied and adapted into recipes of its own around the world. I will continue to edit it but will have no problems if you take it off the GA nomination Editoneer- i should have become prepared after looking at the Israeli cuisine page, it must have taken a team effort and I'm a one man band! I will try to contact fellow Lebanese wikipedians or other culinary experts regarding this matter, but will continue to work on it regardless. Kind regards, JJNito197 (talk) 10:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Editioneer – Weeks later, none of the list/citation issues have been addressed. It's not easy to see why this GAN should stay open indefinitely with so little progress. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:25, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap - How so? I have adressed concerns, merged and cited the majority of red links. I have given reasons for why I haven't adressed all of your comments, namely removing dishes section, but feel free to continue correspondence with me rather than Editoneer if you feel I haven't adressed any and if i'm doing the wrong things. If you've been seeing the contributions page I am very active on my end, citing when I can - to say I haven't adressed ANY of the list/citation issues is not a fair judgement. I have listened to both of your comments and responded accordingly to the best of my knowledge. JJNito197 (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Are you looking at the same article as everyone else? Look at the list of Appetizers, for instance. There are TWENTYONE uncited claims JUST IN THAT SECTION. There are another 15 in Meat dishes. These alone would be a cause for quick-fail if the article were newly submitted to GA. I do hope this is clear. May I also say that when a second opinion comes to GA it is not usual (nor polite, nor, if they are at all well-informed, and the evidence is plain that they are correct, wise) for the nominator to start arguing with them. In this case, I mentioned two issues: 1) there are lists in place of text: CHECK, still unresolved; missing citations in large numbers: CHECK, still unresolved. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:24, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap Right I shall adress those issues, thats all that needs to be said. You can see I've been citing dishes so do not act like I haven't been and claim I haven't done any. I'm not arguing with you I was rather taken back by your strangely confrontive intial tone which implied I had done nothing you suggested, which was not true. I shall continue to cite dishes and If you have any more drive by comments, let me know. JJNito197 (talk) 11:42, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

So i've done like you'e said and cited, so what do I do next? Can you give me suggestions in how to improve this article please. JJNito197 (talk) 12:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Your response remains aggressive, and I'm not the reviewer. However, I suggested you remove all the bulleted lists, replacing them with a narrative of cited text discussing the key dishes and so on, rather than trying to list all of them. A Wikipedia article normally consists of cited text that discusses the topic, explains the key influences on it (and what it influenced), describes its history in some detail, and generally avoids long lists (whether with bullets or tables). I specifically mentioned that the list of wines was inadvisable but it's still there, for example. You claim to be paying close attention but the evidence goes the other way. Anyway, good luck with the review, I've now told you repeatedly what I think, and I've had no cause to change my mind so far. Further comments should be addressed to the reviewer, not to me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:59, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap I'm sorry you felt that way, I'm to the point sort of person and have been improving this article ever since I saw the absolute state it was in initially. I can assure you there is no malice in what i've written other than the initial respone to your comments, which I can admit i was being 'reactive'. As you can see I can't do everything, all the time, I'm just one person editing this. Thanks for your comments I will adress these issues.JJNito197 (talk) 13:12, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Update

Editoneer I have adressed your concerns and am wondering what to do next, please respond.JJNito197 (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Editioneer, this article is not even close to GA at the moment. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:25, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap What do I need to do? I'm all ears here.JJNito197 (talk) 12:14, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

See above. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:59, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I forgot about this page, I'll need to review this again to check for any other mistakes. Editoneer (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

GA Review (1)

I'll just skip ahead to what I see problematic.

Well-Written

• Mention what is a "menghali".
• "Talhi"?
• You still didn't mention what "Sauteed" means.

Verifiability

• [1], still isn't enough and we need more sources to confirm that whole paragraph. This reference doesn't mention poultry, red meat, grains, starch, fresh fish, Lamb being cooked mostly on coastal regions and nothing mentions goat meat. I feel that the information provided is stereotypical.
• [2], doesn't meantion "Baba", "char", "eggplant", "spice", "chickpea", "lemon", "talhi", "garlic", again we need more references here.
• [3], doesn't mention "baklava" for Lebanon, "filo", "pastry" for Lebanon, nuts for Lebanon... "date syrup" or Oh, hi "honey".
• [4], doesn't mention "filo", "date". I suggest that paragraph to have citations based on the ingredients espically on the filo pastery.
• [6], says "Lebanese wine" but not "Arak" which is required. Try to write "Arak" in the search bar and that will help.
• [7] doesn't say anything about "Phoe", "Hitt", "Assy", "Babyl", doesn't mention "Ancient Egypt" which all of those terms are used as the CTRL + F, even if you don't put the whole word in it. Futhermore how do we know it was years back?
• [8], please quote the exact saying of this book that I don't have access to.
• [9], doesn't mention spices, "new" and "food" linked togheter, um, can you point out where this diaspora brought many food and many more?
• Citations warehouse run short with the first paragraph in "Overview"?

Graphic

• The image with Lebanon is off-topic about the cuisine. Rather put an image of some type of cuisine that is very old.

More back comes soon. Editoneer (talk) 12:58, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• Well, you didn't let me finish, I'll wait until the edit wave has stopped. Editoneer (talk) 10:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

• • Thanks, I think I covered what you advised above. I'll go over them again now and see if I missed anything. I will wait patiently after your second edit notes. JJNito197 (talk) 23:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Review (2)

Let me continue before I'm delaying too much.

Lead Section

• There is no mentioning of starch in [1] and [2], remove the starches part if you wish.  Done
• We might need a reference confirming "المطبخ اللبناني" it means "Lebanese cuisine".  Done
• [1] and [2] doesn't mention fish.  Done
• Animal fat are consumed sparingly. Is there a reference that those fats are restricted in its consumption? Considering the fact that "Meat is an essential part of Lebanese cuisine."  Done
• [1], [2]. Doesn't mention that lamb is only consumed in coastal area and goat meat in mountain areas, it seems to be a bit stereotypical. For example every year I used to eat anchovies and they are saltwater fish from Black Sea and I'm living in a mountain area far from it, that doesn't necessarily require you to be in a specific area to eat a certain food.  Done
• Both references doesn't really mention goat meat, it only mentions the milk from it.  Done

• [3] doesn't mention shawarma being a well-known dish.  Done
• I can't review the [5] reference.  Done
• [4] doesn't mention lemon, tahini or garlic. I assume it's eaten with garlic and lemon as the section above states this, but with tahini?  Done
• And we once again have problems with filo, what is filo pastry? And why isn't it mentioned in the references?  Done
• [7] considering it's an encyclopedia which is the same type like Wikipedia, is it reliable?  Done

• What is an "anise"?  Done

History

• Is the image with Lebanon's location necessary? If so, how does it help picturing its cuisine.  Done
• [12][13][14], doesn't mention the Babylonian, doesn't really mention Ancient Egypt, same goes with Assyrian era and of course Hittitie.  Not done  Done  Done  Done.
  • Again, the same problem is with Babylon.  Done
• More recently, How recent?  Done
• [15], I can't review the book.  Done

• The references doesn't mention the diasphora, please remove that exact statement if it can't be proven.  Done

Overview

• No references mention about Sauteed.  Done
• Why is Kibbe capitalized?  Done
• [21] doesn't mention "fork".  Done

• Add punctuation instead of commas. at the end of each sentence.  Done
• All of those statements barely say it is within the meze and there is no references towards them. Even those with [21] [22].  Done
• Family cuisine also offers a range of dishes, such as stews (or yakhneh), which can be cooked in many forms depending on the ingredients used and are usually served with meat and rice vermicelli. where is the reference?  Done
  • I can't access [29]  Done
• Doesn't mention "Yakhneh" or "Vermicelli".  Done

• Doesn't mention the sour plums.  Done
  • I can't read the [29] reference. But the [30] mentions "plum" but are they sour?  Done
• [25] doesn't offer me the opportunity to read it.  Done

I'll continue later. Editoneer (talk) 10:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Dishes and ingredients

• Ka'ak rings, filled with date paste., as the other images, remove the punctuation mark. Done
• [63] is CookPad is trustworthy? I feel you can easily modify it and be used for misinformation.  Done
• Again how do you know that lamb is eaten in coastal area and goat in the mountains?  Done
• invlolving lamb, do you mean "involving"?  Done
• Barout Del Batata – spicy lamb served with potatoes, requires punctuation and reference.  Done
• skewer over charcoal, punctuation.  Done
• Lebanese beer, alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverage, like what is the difference with the other beers?  Done
• Black coffee, can you add a punctuation before the reference?  Done
• Le caroubier, how do we know exactly it's called that way? Might require the actual link and reference.  Done
• Lebanese wine, alcoholic beverage, again what's the difference with other wines and can you add a punctuation mark?  Done
• Turkish coffee, add punctuation.  Done

Wine

• Merge this sub with with the beverages as it counts as a beverage and I think it's very unnecessary this sub.  Done

See Also

• Does the Arab cuisine have something to do with Lebanon or are similar? If not, remove. Same goes with the Mediterranean cuisine.  Done

@JJNito197:, And done. Editoneer (talk) 15:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Response

Editoneer, thank you very much. To address some which may need a second opinion,

> We might need a reference confirming "المطبخ اللبناني" it means "Lebanese cuisine".

How would one ascertain this, would it need to be through google translate or alike, there is no such citation for the Israeli cuisine lead for example.

> Is the image with Lebanon's location necessary? If so, how does it help picturing its cuisine.

I added this in as a reference to the paragraph in which the previous empires that ruled were given, as it gives context to the proximity of those empires being close (geographically) and helps people in general to whom that are not aware of the location of Lebanon and the history behind the region.

> The references doesn't mention the diasphora, please remove that exact statement if it can't be proven.

The first reference noting the american and european consumers experience in summary says that Lebanese immigration quote 'expanded to modest falafel shops into high end establishments' and how 'noticible difference now seperate Lebanese cuisine from its middle eastern counterparts by combining the sophisticated european cuisine with the exotic ingredients of the middle and far east' this for me encaptulates the the sentence that was written regarding the diaspora with merit however not directly in wording. The second reference gives an example of a dish that was exported to Brazil and Argentina by Lebanese immigrants that explain how the dish evolved to be eaten with 'Beef instead of lamb' (new ingredients) and 'lost its top' (culinary practices). I can give further examples of dishes if this would bolster the point of the sentence.

Will continue to edit - thanks for the help.

Nitpicking:

• Arabic coffee. you put the dot inside the link.  Done
• Turkish coffee. same issue above.  Done

Editoneer (talk) 04:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

(Checking out the to-do list) Editoneer (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Alright, 4 things to do now: "Babylon", "How Recent", "Yakhneh" and "Vermicelli". Editoneer (talk) 15:32, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• I believe I have done as requested, if you look at the second source regarding the rice it also specificies other rice preperations so have removed the vermicelli part and merged with 'rice' solely. Please let me know what to do next, Thanks. JJNito197 (talk) 00:26, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I will request a second opinion in case I forgot something. Editoneer (talk) 05:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to pass it now, as it's hugely improved and certainly covers "the main points". If you are still feeling picky, citations would be helpful for Chich taouk, Jwenih, and Kafta bithine; since they're also redlinked, they could be cited, have articles written for them, or removed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:04, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

PInging Editoneer to let them know that their requested second opinion has been posted. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh yay, by who? Editoneer (talk) 06:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

? Me, see just above here. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:55, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh gee, very well I will leave you feedback if the article has anymore issues. Editoneer (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

JJNito197, have you addressed the citations issue raised by Chiswick Chap in this thread? As far as I know, that's the only thing outstanding on this review. Please let us know. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello, BlueMoonset yes I have. Removed as requested and cited also. Regards JJNito197 (talk) 11:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Greetings, I apologise for causing trouble, I forgot about Wikipedia. I did a quick review and I decided to put it for GA. Although I don't understand why you keep adding food images although it would be enough for the pages that say about the pictured food to be appearing in their respective articles. Editoneer (talk) 16:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Editoneer Thank you and yes I agree. Will consider for future reference! regards JJNito197 (talk) 16:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)