Talk:Lazic War

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The Map is misleading...

The map on the article is misleading and is merely a modern computer drawing. There are number of maps available from this time period, digital versions as well. I think it would be appropriate to use the original sources. I will wait for the other contributors to also state their opinion; afterwards, I will offer the map which is from primary source, in order to replace the current one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.173.149.2 (talk) 19:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How exactly is the map misleading in your opinion? It is a mere representation of the geographical extant of the region in conflict during that war, based on modern scholarly sources (which, as you may find in more detail at WP:PRIMARY, trump primary sources). Consequently, I would not suggest replacing the current map with a primary source map. Moreover, I am skeptical of your claim regarding a "number of maps available from this time period": the 6th century is not exactly famous for its abundance of maps, so i suspect that your documents are in fact much more recent. Please show us which maps you have in mind anyway so that we can judge more competently, and thanks for your interest in contributing to wikipedia. You might have to register an account to upload images, it would in any case make everything easier here.Susuman77 (talk) 07:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Trachea redirect

Under the list of fortresses that the article says protected Lazica, the one called Trachea redirects to the human body part and not a fortress. Also, this disambiguation page lists the same fortress under a different name.

ForthomingStorm (talk) 04:29, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I fixed the wikilink for Trachea. Z 19:54, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictions in the article

@Historian863, @Wikaviani. The lead segment contradicts both the infobox and the aftermath section.

Lead: The Lazic War lasted for twenty years, from 541 to 562, with varying success and ended with the Byzantine capture of Lazica in return for tribute to the sassanians , who obtained an annual tribute in exchange for ending the war.

Infobox: Results: Inconclusive

Fifty-Year Peace Treaty
The Byzantine Empire is obliged to pay tribute to Persia each year for the recognition of lazica as a vassal state of Romans by Persians

Territorial changes: Status quo ante bellum

Aftermath: Then, in 557, a truce ended the hostilities between the Byzantines and Persians, and by the "Fifty Years Peace" of Dara of 562, Khosrow I recognized Lazica as a Byzantine vassal state for an annual payment of gold.

The issue here is that the sources don't support the Byzantine capture of Lazica. The page itself cites: Salia, Kalistrat (1980). Histoire de la nation géorgienne. Nino Salia. p. 114. which I don't have access to but also quotes Hartmut Leppin, saying:

After 545 truces brought peace to most of the border regions, but the war lingered in the Caucasus until 561, when Khosrow and Justinian finally agreed to a fifty-year peace. There was no definite victor, but the Sasanian Empire was in a slightly better position as Rome was obliged to pay a fixed sum to Persia each year.^[1]

An additional source which mentions the Byzantines entering Lazica:

In 523 the ruler of Lazica, Tsate, broke his alliance with Iran and went to Constantinople, where he adopted Christianity. Soon thereafter a Byzantine garrison was established in Petra. Iran invaded Lazica several times in the sixth century, but Emperor Justinian maintained Roman sovereignty over the western -Caucauses. After the Roman-Iranian treaty of 561, in which Iran renounced all claims to western Georgia, Lazica disappeared (at least from the sources) and became a province of the Romans. ^[2]

On a side note, the Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox should be amended to reflect this.

Thanks all! Annwfwn (talk) 23:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC) Annwfwn (talk) 23:27, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to be bold and to edit the article according to what reliable sources say, i reverted you because you removed some sourced content. However, i would like to underline that the article does not say that the Byzantines captured Lazica, it only says that the Byzantines were obliged to pay some money to obtain the recognition of Lazica as a vassal state of Romans. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article uses the phrase Byzantine capture in the lead section. I am going to revert to my version.

Also just an FYI, I did not remove sources, I just moved them around as part of the cleanup of the infobox. So it may look like it but they are all there. Annwfwn (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you remove the part about the tribute that was paid by the Byzantines, this is explicitly mentioned in the source ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:53, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters, under "result:" this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result. Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much. Annwfwn (talk) 00:47, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me, i reworded the outcome in order to stick to what the sources say.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Leppin, Hartmut (2021). "The Eastern Roman Empire and Its Neighbours in the "Age of Justinian" – An Overview". In Meier, Mischa; Montinaro, Federico (eds.). A Companion to Procopius of Caesarea. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. p. 13. ISBN 978-90-04-49877-8.
^ Suny, Ronald Grigor (1994). The Making of the Georgian Nation (2nd ed.). Indiana University Press. p. 24. ISBN 0-253-20915-3.

[1] Leppin, Hartmut (2021). "The Eastern Roman Empire and Its Neighbours in the "Age of Justinian" – An Overview". In Meier, Mischa; Montinaro, Federico (eds.). A Companion to Procopius of Caesarea. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. p. 13. ISBN 978-90-04-49877-8.

[2] Suny, Ronald Grigor (1994). The Making of the Georgian Nation (2nd ed.). Indiana University Press. p. 24. ISBN 0-253-20915-3.

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