Talk:Lavender oil/Archive 2
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5ml statement
@Bon courage: It looks like you might be confused by what I'm referring to. I did not say that lavender oil was not in the source as a toxic essential oil, only that the 5ml statement specifically (if you check the footnote) was referring to a study that did not include lavender oil. Thus, the staement that 5ml of lavender oil is toxic in not sourced anywhere that I can find. Let me know if you think I'm missing something, though. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- My reading of the Lee et al source is that the 5ml statement is generalized to all essential oils under discussion. Bon courage (talk) 17:07, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The point of the footnote, though, is to show where the 5ml statement comes from. If there was no footnote explaining that, then I can see how we could draw that conclusion, but otherwise it's WP:OR. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I see no footnote (I am looking at the print version, final paragraph). Bon courage (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The last paragraph is referring to the second paragraph, which says
the risk depending on the oil used; the onset of toxicity can be rapid, and small quantities (as little as 5 mL) can cause life-threatening toxicity in children.3
The risk depends on the oils, as it states, and the footnote in that paragraph supporting the 5ml statement refers to a study which did not analyze lavender oil. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)- I don't think that's right. And we're not referring to "life-threatening" toxicity. What we have is a good summary of the concluding paragraph. What you are saying is essentially (hah!) that the author(s) should have written something else. Bon courage (talk) 17:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I think everything the author wrote was correct and clear. I'm not sure what part you're confused about. Did you see the study the author linked to in the sentence about the 5ml? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:58, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- We should summarize what the secondary source says, rather than reinterpret it based on the sources it cites. See WP:MEDPRI. The secondary sources generalizes the 5ml quantity to all essential oils. Who are Wikipedia editors to gainsay that? Bon courage (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I just realized I missed that great pun the first time. Anyways, I posted on the OR noticeboard because this discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 18:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- We should summarize what the secondary source says, rather than reinterpret it based on the sources it cites. See WP:MEDPRI. The secondary sources generalizes the 5ml quantity to all essential oils. Who are Wikipedia editors to gainsay that? Bon courage (talk) 18:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I think everything the author wrote was correct and clear. I'm not sure what part you're confused about. Did you see the study the author linked to in the sentence about the 5ml? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:58, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think that's right. And we're not referring to "life-threatening" toxicity. What we have is a good summary of the concluding paragraph. What you are saying is essentially (hah!) that the author(s) should have written something else. Bon courage (talk) 17:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The last paragraph is referring to the second paragraph, which says
- I see no footnote (I am looking at the print version, final paragraph). Bon courage (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The point of the footnote, though, is to show where the 5ml statement comes from. If there was no footnote explaining that, then I can see how we could draw that conclusion, but otherwise it's WP:OR. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
It is OR because the source does not mention lavender oil. Source mentions essential oil, however this does not mean that all essential oils which exist are in 5ml toxic. Mikola22 (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The sources do mention lavender oil. Bon courage (talk) 19:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- Imagine this statement:
- "Fruits can be different colors, including yellow, depending on the fruit. A study found that bananas and lemons are yellow. To summarize, fruits can be yellow."
- What you're saying is we should take that to mean avocados can be yellow, because the summary said fruits can be yellow. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I'm saying is: follow the sources. I have nothing more to add. The Australian hospital source actually gives a lower dose (2-3ml) as toxic for children. Maybe work on following that up rather than this nonsense about fruits? Bon courage (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- You mean the source that says
Smaller Ingestions of 2-3 mL of some essential oils have been associated with toxicity in children
? Does some mean all? Does some mean lavender? I still don't see what you mean, but you're welcome to quote where it does. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 20:07, 20 September 2022 (UTC) - @Bon courage, you have a source and cite where it says that lavender oil is in 5ml toxic or present source context in which it is stated that among 5ml toxic essential oil is and lavender oil. After this is presented then we can make new conclusions or confirm current one ie OR issue. Mikola22 (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- You mean the source that says
- What I'm saying is: follow the sources. I have nothing more to add. The Australian hospital source actually gives a lower dose (2-3ml) as toxic for children. Maybe work on following that up rather than this nonsense about fruits? Bon courage (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I agree with Bon Courage - two Australian sources examining specifically the accidental ingestion by children of essential oils, including lavender oil, stated that 5 ml was potentially toxic. The quotes are in the sources, and are appropriate for the adverse effects section. Zefr (talk) 21:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- The third source doesn't talk about 5mL toxic but talks about poisoning in context of I quote: "Lavender poisoning can occur when someone swallows large amounts of lavender oil." That's what I was talking about breaking Wikipedia rules and classic synthesis. The source is in context if someone drinks large amounts of lavender oil. The question is whether this is a quality source ie RS, given that it is a medical journal or first aid portal and not a book or source which deals with lavender oil as a product etc. And water, salt etc are poisons if it is used in large quantities. Mikola22 (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not all essential oils are the same, one might be very toxic while an other might be not be.
- https://www.antigifcentrum.be/andere/zijn-essenti-le-oli-n-gevaarlijk [Translated from Dutch] "Because all these oils have specific (toxic) properties, it is difficult to classify their danger."
- So to say because a study looked at a bunch of oils and found some of them (not mentioning lavender as the one) are toxic starting at 5ml, I found that to be poorly sourced. Luka's not a fish (talk) 08:07, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
RfC on 5ml statement
Talk Page discussion directly above. Regarding the first sentence in Adverse Effects.
Based on the sources, which way should it read?
The bold is the constested part:
Option 1 If ingested, lavender oil is poisonous in amounts as small as 5 millilitres (0.18 imp fl oz; 0.17 US fl oz) due to its constituents linalyl acetate and linalool.
Option 2 If ingested, lavender oil is poisonous due to its constituents linalyl acetate and linalool.
Option 3 Something else?
The sources used for this claim about 5ml for lavender oil are:
1. this
2. this
3. this
Please read the sources and decide if they support the statement about lavender oil, specifically. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 21:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3. The sources aren't given here, but I think since the current cited sources mentioning lavender oil group it with essential oils which be toxic at 5ml, so just deleting the number is not being faithful to them and blows past the fact tht "the dose makes the poison". To capture that this is generalized rather than a specific statement, and that concentration plays a role (1% concentrate oil is less toxic than 20% concentrate oil) maybe the solution is simply to insert the word "possibly" (there are longer ways of doing this, but this is concise). Hence (assuming current sources are used):
Option 3. If ingested, lavender oil may be toxic, possibly in amounts as small as 5 millilitres (0.18 imp fl oz; 0.17 US fl oz) for adults, due to its constituents linalyl acetate and linalool.
- Bon courage (talk) 02:02, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with this statement above. Dobblestein 🎲 🎲 talk 22:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- Rewrite. The section can just be edited with sources for specific statements. as with this version, which is open for improvement, if needed. Zefr (talk) 04:23, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Zefr I still don't see where the source says that for the 2-3ml statement. It says
Smaller Ingestions of 2-3 mL of some essential oils have been associated with toxicity in children
. The study says some oils, but it does not specify which. This would be a good statement for the Essential Oil article, since it generalizes, but it's not clear that this statement applies to lavender oil. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2022 (UTC)- WP:MEDSCI outlines that a Wikipedia medical statement should represent the prevailing medical and scientific consensus, which - according to international poison control centers and reputable sources like NIH - states that ingestion of essential oils, including lavender oil as specifically cited in the adverse effects section, can cause toxicity in adults ingesting 5 ml and in children ingesting 2-3 ml. The sentence referring to toxicity in children puts lavender oil in the context of other ingested essential oils, according to the NSW-Australian poison center: "where lavender oil was included among other common essential oils that may cause rapid, life-threatening toxicity when ingested." MEDSCI also states that reputable minority conclusions can be included, if published by experts. So, if there is an expert source that says ingesting lavender oil in amounts of 2-5 ml causes no harm in children or adults, then that could be written and cited in the article. Zefr (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not disputing the source, or the toxicity, or the toxicity in children. What I'm saying is the 2-3ml was referring to "some," but not "all" or "all the ones listed in the study". You're drawing a false conclusion from the premises.
- Imagine this statement:
- "We studied 10 fruits, including avocados, bananas, and lemons. We found that fruits can be different colors, including yellow, depending on the fruit."
- What you're saying is we should take that to mean avocados can be yellow, because they studied fruits that included avocados. But you're missing that they said "depending on the fruit". Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- The title of the section is "Possible adverse effects", so if someone ingested 1 ml of lavender oil, there would likely be no event to report to a poison center; the article statement supported by the source includes lavender oil among other oils in amounts of 2-3 ml that "can be toxic" to children, i.e., not "are toxic" (where a specific source for lavender oil would be used, but no such specific studies have been done, mainly because these are poisoning reports from the public to a poison center). WP:BURDEN is on you and others arguing for a change in content or source: if there is a reputable publication that either excludes lavender oil from ingested oils being toxic in the amounts discussed, or proves ingesting 2-5 ml of lavender oil is safe, then it should be provided. No reasonable interpretation of the sources would exclude lavender oil from the possible adverse effects that would result if lavender or any essential oil was ingested in amounts of 2-5 ml by children and adults, i.e., this is the prevailing scientific and medical consensus, according to poison centers and government institutions. Zefr (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, the burden is on you to provide evidence for the amount of lavender oil being stated, however, as you said, "no such specific studies have been done". Therefore, leave out the specific ml amount until a study has been done on lavender oil. Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- The title of the section is "Possible adverse effects", so if someone ingested 1 ml of lavender oil, there would likely be no event to report to a poison center; the article statement supported by the source includes lavender oil among other oils in amounts of 2-3 ml that "can be toxic" to children, i.e., not "are toxic" (where a specific source for lavender oil would be used, but no such specific studies have been done, mainly because these are poisoning reports from the public to a poison center). WP:BURDEN is on you and others arguing for a change in content or source: if there is a reputable publication that either excludes lavender oil from ingested oils being toxic in the amounts discussed, or proves ingesting 2-5 ml of lavender oil is safe, then it should be provided. No reasonable interpretation of the sources would exclude lavender oil from the possible adverse effects that would result if lavender or any essential oil was ingested in amounts of 2-5 ml by children and adults, i.e., this is the prevailing scientific and medical consensus, according to poison centers and government institutions. Zefr (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- WP:MEDSCI outlines that a Wikipedia medical statement should represent the prevailing medical and scientific consensus, which - according to international poison control centers and reputable sources like NIH - states that ingestion of essential oils, including lavender oil as specifically cited in the adverse effects section, can cause toxicity in adults ingesting 5 ml and in children ingesting 2-3 ml. The sentence referring to toxicity in children puts lavender oil in the context of other ingested essential oils, according to the NSW-Australian poison center: "where lavender oil was included among other common essential oils that may cause rapid, life-threatening toxicity when ingested." MEDSCI also states that reputable minority conclusions can be included, if published by experts. So, if there is an expert source that says ingesting lavender oil in amounts of 2-5 ml causes no harm in children or adults, then that could be written and cited in the article. Zefr (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Zefr I still don't see where the source says that for the 2-3ml statement. It says
- Option 3. Remove entire information from the article as well as the sources, considering that combining them into curent sentence from the article violates rules of Wikipedia ie OR and synthesis. After that, we need to find a quality source which talks about lavender oil and make an edit. Mikola22 (talk) 17:43, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3. The third source doesn't seem to quantify the amount as the article only mentions "large amounts," so I don't think this source is useful in supporting quantity. The other two sources at least mention that in general ingesting 5mL of many essential oils can be toxic. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 18:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3. Lavender oil is not poisonous in amounts as small as 5 millilitres, none of the sources given support this conjecture. The risk varies from oil to oil, but sources do not specifically quantify the amount at which Lavender oil could be deemed toxic. Kerberous (talk) 11:47, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 per Bon courage. Originoa (talk) 05:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)