Talk:Laura Veale

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Biography: Science and Academia

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the science and academia work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Medicine Low‑importance

	Medicine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Yorkshire Low‑importance

	Yorkshire portal Laura Veale is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women's Health Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's Health, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's Health on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HealthWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HealthTemplate:WikiProject Women's Healthwomen's health articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women scientists Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women scientists, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women in science on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women scientistsWikipedia:WikiProject Women scientistsTemplate:WikiProject Women scientistsWomen scientists articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from Laura Veale appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 July 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Laura Veale was the first woman to practise as a doctor in the town of Harrogate?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/July. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Laura Veale.

Wikipedia

Yorkshire College

@Storye book:, I am confused by Harrogate College and Yorkshire College in the article. Having checked the Wikipedia articles, in 1897 Yorkshire College probably means the future University of Leeds and Harrogate College probably means Harrogate Ladies' College. Do the sources mention both colleges? TSventon (talk) 12:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neither. The links and names in the article are correct. The ones you are confused about are and were separate institutions.:

1. Harrogate Ladies College, a private school for girls in Harrogate. It still exists in a posh area of Harrogate, name unchanged. It costs a lot of money to go there, and in Laura Veale's time, the schoolgirls at that school were lucky and privileged. It has always been in Harrogate, which is a different town from Leeds.
2. Harrogate College. Today it is a state-run college in an industrial estate in Harrogate. It still has a good reputation.. Today, any state school pupil can attend for free, and retake GCSE's and A-Levels, or take those exams where their previous state school did not provide such an opportunity. Most pupils are between 16 and 18 years old, although there are also courses for adults. It has always been in Harrogate, although its examinations may be overseen by some University exam boards. Harrogate College was once called Yorkshire College, and maybe changed its name to Harrogate College because other institutions were calling themselves Yorkshire College.
3. University of Leeds. Completely different from the above, and nothing to do with Harrogate.. Leeds University has always been in Leeds, which is a different town from Harrogate, 20+ miles away.
4. Leeds School of Medicine was and is in Leeds. It was and is a medical institution, not a university, although now the University of Leeds has it under its administrative umbrella..

So the article is correct. Storye book (talk) 19:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, this is confusing, names like Yorkshire College or Harrogate College can be used by multiple institutions.

1. the article on Harrogate Ladies College says that Harrogate College was a boys' school in the 1880s, but closed some time after 1893. It does not say they were connected. I think that is the Harrogate College that helped Veale according to the BMJ obituary.
2. the article on Harrogate College says it started with university extension courses in the 19th century. Do you have a source to say it was called Yorkshire College in the 19th century? Or that Veale went there? It may well have been part of a Yorkshire College in the 20th century, there has been a lot of reorganisation.
3. the article on the University of Leeds says that it was known as the Yorkshire College when it absorbed the Leeds School of Medicine in 1884 and subsequently joined the federal Victoria University in 1897. Veale probably studied at the Yorkshire College, Leeds before applying to the Leeds School of Medicine in 1897, as mentioned in the quotation from her letter.
4. Leeds School of Medicine was part of the Yorkshire College but only joined the Victoria University in late 1897.

I found a BMJ listing here confirming that Veale had studied at Yorkshire College in or before 1897. TSventon (talk) 20:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have added that reference to the article. Storye book (talk) 07:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please could you respond to my points 1 to 3 from yesterday, including the questions, which I have now highlighted? TSventon (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I now believe your concerns in your points 1-3 above are justified. I had misunderstood the source (Reynard 1954), all because I missed one word ("also"). I have re-written the relevant part of the article, which should now fit what you say. If you have further concerns, please let me know. Storye book (talk) 11:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harrogate College is still linked to Harrogate College, which I believe is incorrect. Harrogate College was a private school which closed in around 1900 so I don't think there was any connection with the current college apart from the name. I found an article about the girls' school in a 1960 issue of the Illustrated London News with snippet view in Google books, which said "Very shortly after Mr. Savery's death in 1903, however, the Boys' School ceased to exist". Apparently the girls' school used the name Harrogate College when the article was written, so mentions of Harrogate College in Wikipedia may refer to the boys' school, the girls' school or the FE college.

By the way, I would like to see what Reynard says about Harrogate College and Yorkshire College, could you quote it if it is not too lengthy? TSventon (talk) 18:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have now created Harrogate College (Boys' School) as a redirect to Harrogate Ladies' College#History and updated the information about the former boys' school at the target. I hope everything now makes sense. TSventon (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the part of Reynard's 1954 article that you asked for: I have highlighted the "also" which I had not spotted before. That word tells us that she studied maths at two different establishments, so that "Yorkshire College" probably means Leeds.

Dr Laura met early difficulties with regard to Matriculation. The 19th century educational standards for girls were low. Few girls' schools taught mathematics, science or Latin to satisfy the London Matriculation, and she went to the then Yorkshire College for tuition. She also needed coaching in maths and applied to the head master of the Harrogate College, Mr George Mearns Savery, for help: but he could not spare a master for private work. He suggested she should go to the college and work with the sixth form boys and the suggestion was accepted. Dr Laura was then in her 20s and there followed a period of eager study. Mr Savery was so much impressed by this example of the inadequacy of female education that he started a high school for girls, and it was so successful that it eventually became the Harrogate Ladies' College.^[1]

^ Reynard, Charles (19 May 1954). "Dr Laura Veale, pioneer woman doctor". Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer. p. 4 cols 6–8. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via British Newspaper Archive.

Thank you for your edit on the article. I was intending to do the header edit myself, but have not had enough time, so I appreciate your assistance. Storye book (talk) 08:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Women were not permitted to qualify as doctors

@Storye book:, I think that a couple of quotes in the article are inaccurate as Veale could have applied to the London School of Medicine for Women. The LSMW opened in 1874 and linked to the Royal Free Hospital in 1877, when she was ten, so after 1877 it was possible, though difficult, for women to qualify as doctors in England. This is a useful summary of the situation in the 19th century. Also the University of Durham (at Newcastle) admitted its first four women students for medical degrees in 1896. The quotes are

Because the concept of women doctors was considered unacceptable during her era (unsourced in lead)
However women were not permitted to qualify as doctors during Veale's youth ("Tribute to first woman doctor". Harrogate Advertiser)

TSventon (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that information. The article was created in response only to the sources that I could find. I have adjusted the article accordingly. Storye book (talk) 10:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Storye book, another source is The Times obituary for "Dr. Laura Veale" published on Thursday 15 Aug. 1963 p. 10, accessible via Gale in the Wikipedia Library. There was also a Lancet obituary, but that is snippet view via Google books. TSventon (talk) 14:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the Times citation. It takes me ages to plough through the access gates in WP library, so I used my local library's access to Gale, which is fast. If you would like me to add the WP Library url, please add it here, and I'll copy it into the citation as an alternative link. Thanks again. Storye book (talk) 15:27, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Reynard_1954-1] Reynard, Charles (19 May 1954). "Dr Laura Veale, pioneer woman doctor". Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer. p. 4 cols 6–8. Retrieved 5 May 2024 – via British Newspaper Archive.

[1]