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Talk:Last battle on British soil

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Tenuous entries

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Nice idea for an article.

Don't mean to be too critical, but I think some of these are tenuous. If you're going to include anything described in RS as a "battle" (which seems the case with the more recent events), you can add:

...and, I'm sure, many others.

--Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:37, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Sporting events are a rather different kettle of fish imo, and aren't battles in the sense used here (armed and/or violent confrontations between large groups of people, with definable sides, at least one of which is organised). If there is a list of sporting events called the battle of X then that would work as a see also entry I think. Thryduulf (talk) 15:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion criteria

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When creating this list I was working based on the following approximate inclusion criteria. Events must:

  • Have taken place on land on the island of Great Britain (this is why the Battle of Britain is a see also)
  • Have been a battle, meaning all of:
    • An armed and/or violent confrontation
    • Between at least two defineable (usually large) groups of people
    • With at least one side being formally organised
  • Be called a "battle" by at least some reliable sources
  • Be regarded as the "last" battle under some reasonable criteria and/or be called the "last battle on British/English soil" (or some similar term) in at least some reliable sources.

The Poll tax riots and 2011 England riots for example are not regarded as battles so don't count, nor do sporting events where the term "battle" is used somewhat metaphorically. Thryduulf (talk) 16:24, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned about your inclusion criteria being your inclusion criteria, rather than those used by RS. Sorry for being pedantic. I'm a pedant. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 18:00, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The RS are only interested in why their claim that X was the last battle and Y wasn't is correct. These criteria allow the inclusion of everything that has been called the last battle in RS (and thus need an entry on this list) while excluding things that RS do not regard as the last battle but could be claimed as such. If there are better criteria that fulfil these requirements please suggest them. Thryduulf (talk) 18:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pointing out deficiencies. I don't have a better idea. But if an article is inherently POV because we don't have reliable criteria, it's a real problem. I'm totally tongue in cheek with the football matches above, but honestly some of the later examples on the page are not much less ridiculous. What I'm demonstrating is that just because something has become known as a "battle" doesn't make it a battle. Sorry to be negative, honestly I am, but there is a problem here. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:30, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well Graveney Marsh and earlier are all called the "last battle" in reliable sources, so clearly belong here. Orgreave undoubtedly shared many characteristics of a medieval pitched battle, and I'm sure I've seen it described as the last battle somewhere but I can't immediately find where. Beanfield I'm less certain of - I think my recollection of it being called the last battle was when listening to the story of the battle told by someone who was involved in the periphery of it. My memory is not a reliable source though.
It's clear to me that this list should exist, and needs to include at the very least all the events reliable sources call the last battle - but there is not single criteria all the sources use - if there was there would only be one entry not a list. Thryduulf (talk) 23:37, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking about this overnight and came to the same conclusion. Make the inclusion criterion that RS have claimed it as the last battle on British/Welsh/English/Scottish soil and you're sorted. Sorry for the roundabout way we got to a good conclusion, but I think we've reached one. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:17, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved Orgreave and Beanfield to see alsos. I have found a few sources claiming that other historians and/or commentators regard Orgreave as the last battle, but I've not found anything reliable (at least yet) claiming either is. I did find one unreliable source claim the last battle happened in Reading in 1996 but I can't work out what even that is referring to. Thryduulf (talk) 11:46, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:49, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What about the Troubles?

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I think that this page should be merged into another – perhaps one on British history – as I feel the definitional questions are too difficult for Wikipedia. Take this as an example: I see that the last 'battle' this page proposes is a skirmish with the crew of a German plane downed during the Battle of Britain. If this is counted as a battle, then it raises the question: where is the Troubles?

Dozens of skirmishes or incidents Troubles would meet this article's criteria, and there is no reason they aren't included since the article doesn't claim to be surveying only Great Britain or establish a strict definition of 'battle'. For example, why isn't the Battle of the Bogside here? The fighting that took place at Crosmaglen? These are military incidents that took place during a conflict on British soil. There are dozens of incidents from Northern Ireland that could – perhaps should – be here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacobchip (talk • contribs) 21:06, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jacobchip: The criteria used for this page is that one or more reliable sources describe the event as "the last battle fought on British (or English) soil" or some directly equivalent phrase. I've not seen any sources describing any event of the troubles in those terms, Bogside for example appears in discussions about the last battle on Irish soil. However if you have a reliable source that's been missed that does describe Bogside, or any other event not on the list, as the last Battle on British soil then do feel to add it. Thryduulf (talk) 13:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: Hi. I understand that. I do, however, think it is common sense that the page should clarify that the references are to 'Great Britain'. I'm not trying to make a political point, but it is odd that Northern Ireland is not included. There are dozens of academic works referring to the Troubles as a 'war' and refer to specific 'battles' within it. Since Northern Ireland is a constituent part of the UK – it has, legally speaking, British soil. Take Bill English's Armed Struggle: the History of the IRA (2008 Edition). I counted 15 references to specific battles in Northern Ireland since 1921, including the Battle of Short Strand in 1970 (2008:135), the Battle of Lenadoon in 1972 (2008:158) and the Battle of St Matthew's (2008:351) in 1970, alongside a number of references to the Battle of the Bogside and others.
While there were undoubtedly battles as part of the Troubles, and while Northern Ireland is legally British there are exactly no references I've been able to find that describe those battles as being on "British soil", let alone describing them as the "last battle on British soil". Being called that is literally the only requirement for inclusion on this list - there is no restriction to Great Britain, the only reason all the entries are events that took place in Great Britain is because those are the only ones reliable sources call the "last Battle on British soil". Thryduulf (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, this is ridiculous. There is obviously a serious problem with the qualification for entry into the article in that case. If we all recognise that there there battles on ‘British soil’ that are not listed here, then there is a serious problem with the article and it should be deleted or clarified. I can cite more: the Falklands War? British: yes; took place after all the examples cited in the article? Yes. Included ‘battles’? Yes. Jacobchip (talk) 02:29, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no problem with the qualification for entry into the article, it is a list of events that reliable sources call "the last battle on British soil" - anything else would be original research. We can add see-also to other events if you can justify their inclusion, but the criteria for inclusion is clear, simple and objective. What matters is the sources, not our personal feelings. Thryduulf (talk) 15:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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