Talk:Larry Nassar/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sentence

Needs more clarity. States 175 years, but only metions 60+40 in the article. Please address, and then you may remove the tag. Cheers, >SerialNumber54129^{...speculates} 14:21, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for doing as I asked, Bennv3771. Happy editing, >SerialNumber54129^{...speculates} 14:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Relevance of salary?

"he began working as an assistant professor at MSU's Department of Family and Community Medicine in the College of Osteopathic Medicine, earning $100,000 annually.[3] "

Is his salary relevant?93.34.233.222 (talk) 08:48, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

It is necessary to know the heights of his career that came before the very big fall. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:12, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The sentence

People are not sentenced to "X to Y years" in prison. It is likely this "40 to 175" term is a shortcut summary of a collection of sentences, some that would have included recommendations that he not be considered for release for "Z years". I suggest it is better to find the actual court sentence/s as a reference rather than use media sources. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 04:01, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

In Michigan, most felony sentences take that form: the court determines the minimum time the prisoner will serve and the maximum time he may be held; the parole board chooses when to release him. See, e.g., Sheila Robertson Deming, Michigan's Sentencing Guidelines, Mich. Bar. J., June 2000. That's actually what happened here:

The former doctor for the American gymnastics team, Dr. Lawrence G. Nassar, was sentenced to 40 to 175 years in prison on Wednesday for multiple sex crimes. . . .

. . . .

The sentence carries a minimum 40 years imprisonment, adhering to the terms of the plea agreement, but the judge advised that should Dr. Nassar improbably live longer than any human has, and come up for parole after serving the federal and state sentences, his time in state prison should extend to 175 years.

Scott Cacciola and Victor Mather, Larry Nassar Sentencing: "I Just Signed Your Death Warrant", N.Y. Times, Jan. 24, 2018.

Rebbing 14:46, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Roger 8 Roger: 40 to 175 years is the official sentence. It's called indefinite imprisonment:

A handful of states use determinate sentencing....However, most states use indeterminate sentencing. This is when the offender's sentence is identified as a range, rather than a specific time period. In other words, the offender is actually sentenced to one to five years.

Bennv3771 (talk) 14:54, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks to all. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 16:43, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Lede 7 or 150

Presently in lede:

He is known predominantly for his sexual abuse of more than 150 girls

Later in the article:

He admitted molesting seven girls

I don't see a source listed proving he abused more than 150 girls. There are certainly more than 150 accusations, but it doesn't appear to be responsible to say that all of the accusations are true. We should only be saying that in regard to accusations he's admitted to or been proven guilty of. ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:10, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The present wording for the lead section is:

His abuses came to light during the USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal, in which he was accused of molesting at least 150 underage girls, including a number of well-known Olympic gymnasts. He has admitted to at least ten of the accusations.

I see nothing wrong with the present wording, it is supported by the cited sources. And, as some sources state and as the sentencing Judge stated, considering the heinousness of Nassar's crimes and their sheer numbers - being committed over decades of time - it is statistically very likely that Nassar sexually harassed, physically assaulted, sexually assaulted, and brutally raped many more minor children than the ones that came forward.

And, as to convicted felon Nassar's admission of guilt in a certain number of cases, that admission was part of a plea deal with prosecutors, which means that number is the number of crimes that he was willing to admit to, not the actual number of crimes that he committed and that he is ultimately guilty of. Shearonink (talk) 18:43, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 January 2018

The first line "The surname Nassar (Arabic: نصار‎) is of Arab origin." infers the person's nationality which is misleading. Engineeringmanager (talk) 17:00, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Already done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:30, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Actually, he is an Arab-American. Whether this fact is necessary for this article is another issue. 108.16.207.46 (talk) 21:28, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Until a reliable source, as laid out in WP:RS says he is Arab then we cannot make asusmptions. As well, I think there should be a consensus whether religion is important before adding it in. See the dicussion above titled "Larry Nassar Early Life". HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 22:36, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Where are the photographs in the Larry Nassar article?

This article does not contain a single photograph. That is somewhat unusual. Photos add life to an article. It's rather boring to read through paragraphs of text with seeing a single picture. I know that copyright photos are not accepted, and I don't know how to locate photos that are free to copy in the public domain.

Let's see some photos of Nassar and his victims. If you walk over to the article on Ted Bundy, you see many photos of him and the victims. The article on Larry Nassar should not be devoid of photographs. Anthony22 (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

It is not clear to me that photographs of victims of sexual assault belong on the page of their assailant. It would be good to find a free photo of Nassar, though. CapitalSasha ~ talk 02:33, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

In this case, the victims came forward publicly to give victim impact statements at Nassar's sentencing hearing. The victims are already identified in the text of this article. If the victims are identified in the text, it should be OK to use a few pictures. Photographs and news broadcasts of the victims have already appeared all over the Internet. Anthony22 (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

This is an article about an individual. If there are free-use photos of that individual then those photos could possibly be included. I think before any thought that photos of the innocent survivor-victims be included (which at last count amounted to at least 150 accusers), Mr. Nassar's image should be included first. Shearonink (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Should be merged into the scandal article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was don't merge. With a vote of 11 to 0, I think we might as well close this. Natureium (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

---

I don't have time to start a formal merge proposal and don't have much time in the coming days to return to follow/comment on this discussion, so it would be great if someone else would do that (see WP:MERGEPROP). Per WP:CRIME:

A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person.
Where there is such an existing article, it may be appropriate to create a sub-article, but only if this is necessitated by considerations of article size.

Also, the WP:ONEEVENT guideline can basically be summarized as: for people only known in connection with one event, "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person." In my opinion, there is no need for this separate article about Nassar. The details in the "Early and personal life" and "Medical career" sections of this article could be added to the scandal article as a section called "Larry Nassar". (If someone does that, remember to properly attribute the source in the edit summary adding any copied-and-pasted text from this article. See WP:MERGETEXT.) AHeneen (talk) 03:41, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

It seems to me that Nassar's crimes were so numerous and had such an impact on the popular discourse that they fall under this exception to WP:BIO1E: "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." I guess only time will tell if the USA gymnastics scandal will become an event of historical interest. But it has involved accusations from over 150 people, some of them very famous, and resulted in several high-profile resignations, including of the president of a major university, which makes me think that for the time being we are justified in keeping this article. CapitalSasha ~ talk 07:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

It was split from the USA gymnastics abuse article because he's only known for one subject (abuse), but it's so many incidents that not all of them fit in that topic. Only some of his victims were gymnasts. Some were athletes at MSU and some were community members that came to him as a doctor. One known victim was a family friend. Natureium (talk) 19:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@CapitalSasha: Both WP:BIO1E and WP:CRIME are part of the same guideline page, so I don't think that the WP:BIO1E sentence you quoted should be considered to trump the conflicting WP:CRIME guideline. @Natureium: Even if there are a few other victims, he is overwhelmingly noted for the abuse of the gymnasts on the USA national team. Neither article says anything about other victims. Also, as heinous a crime it may be, there are thousands of sexual abuse and child pornography cases in the US each year. The current Nassar article is really just a WP:COATRACK for the scandal article. In my opinion, if the content from the Nassar article were to be merged, it wouldn't be inappropriate to mention the child pornography conviction and abuse of others besides the USA national team gymnasts in a section about the perpetrator. Good Wikipedia articles usually have background sections that contain information that may not be exactly on topic, but relevant so that a reader doesn't have to keep clicking on wikilinks just to understand the topic of the article. If the scandal article starts getting too long or it starts to contain an unbalanced amount of info about Nassar outside the scope of that article, then an article about Nassar could be split off into a separate article. However, the current scandal article is nowhere near long enough to justify splitting off articles. The guideline is at WP:WHENSPLIT and the scandal article is just 12kB readable prose size. AHeneen (talk) 07:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose obviously he has a significant role in the scandal and thus qualifies, some times you have to remember bad people are notable. With over 100 victims, that's over 100 events too, unless you diminish them by counting them as just one. Also i am continents away from the US and people on the ground are discussing this case where i am, it's a major case and one of the biggest sporting abuses in history. PS. his time as the head doctor of the US national team + the abuse can also be technically two events. GuzzyG (talk) 10:56, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose for the reasons I stated above. Natureium (talk) 17:45, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose: For reasons already stated. Kiteinthewind ^{Leave a message!} 18:11, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose There has been a lot more coverage since the AfD last February, a separate article is necessary.LM2000 (talk) 18:23, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose' - The crimes go beyond USA Gymnastics, at least to Michigan State as well. And I am not sure Nassar did not accumulate enough coverage over his 18 years with USA Gymnastics to be notable even without the crimes, although today it may be difficult to find the non-crime related coverage among all the crime coverage that exists now. In any event, WP:CRIME states that we should not "normally" have a separate article for the perpetrator, even if the prior considerations did not apply, but this is hardly a "normal" case. Rlendog (talk) 19:53, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose' - these separate articles are necessary. BabbaQ (talk) 22:36, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose' (for now) - has received enough independent coverage to pass WP:GNG. While the two article do overlap on many aspects and are certainly connected, as a whole the article on the individual is notable enough to stand by itself. Inter&anthro (talk) 23:45, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose for the reasons stated above. Mr. Nassar has a history with gymnastics prior to the scandal and I believe that it should be kept separate.Jurisdicta (talk) 04:46, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. There is no way that this article should be merged into the 'scandal' article. The scandal article will probably continue to develop, as more MSU & US Gymnastics & other sports bureaucrats are called to account for their behavior and actions surrounding knowledge of the ongoing abuse. Besides, let's not forget, Mr. Nassar was also sentenced to 60 years on Federal child pornography charges and the story of those charges do not belong in the scandal article. Mr. Nassar did not only abuse US Gymnasts - his abuse is of such a scope and range that it is almost beyond belief. Shearonink (talk) 15:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Oppose - Notable due to the breadth and scope of his crimes, which include an extraordinary number of victims (as detailed extensively in the press) and child pornography charges. Additionally, other figures in this scandal who were involved in different ways (covering up, ignoring, passing the buck or otherwise failing to take adequate action) will surely be named; their notability will vary and can be discussed as needed. Mr. Nassar's involvement, however, is far greater and farther reaching and will be the focus of discussions (as well as additional legal process) for years to come. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 23:16, 30 January 2018 (UTC)]]

Oppose - however vile his actions that made him notable, he does indeed need a separate article, largely due to the scandal. -- Gokunks (Speak to me) 00:10, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Number rose to 265

The number of known sexual abuse victims of former USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar has grown to 265, a Michigan judge has said.--APS^talk 18:11, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Early life

Someone who can find valid references should add a paragraph about his parents, religious affiliation, upbringing, where he was born and his life prior to high school. See for example the page on Mae West or any typical biographical page. Botendaddy 04:34, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that would be very interesting facts!

At the bottom of the page, he's identified as a "Roman Catholic". Though "Nassar" does not sound like a last name traditionally associated with Roman Catholicism. Given his last name and the fact that that he's from Michigan, I imagine Wikipedia should add a link to "Arab American Doctors," which wiki no doubt would have were he famous for doing something great. But, hey, that's wikipedia and these biases are to be expected.

The name Nassar can be found among Arab Christians. It is from the Arabic word "Nasr" meaning Help, and reportedly when Jesus asked "Who will help me?" his companions said "We will be your helpers", hence his companions were called Nassara (helpers). Similar name Ansara is a common name among Lebanese Christians e.g. Hollywood actor Michael Ansara. Hassanfarooqi (talk) 19:08, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I say we remove religion until there is a reliable source saying he is one or the other. I know people who have McDonald as a name but they are Jewish because they converted. We cannot go based on last name alone. There is a source that says he got married at St. Thomas Aquinas Church, which is a Roman Catholic Church. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 19:15, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Maybe Egyptian coptic? But whatever religion he claims to follow, he's still a perv. 109.155.164.110 (talk) 23:56, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

I found a source that he was afffiliated with a Church in Michigan. Nassar could also be Lebanese, Syrian or Palestinian Christian, possibly Maronite. It’s as relevant to mention religion for him as for anybody else. Also people’s ancestry is very prominent in almost any Wikipedia article. Take Hi Jolly for example. His ancestry and religion are mentioned, but Hi Jolly is a positive reflection on Middle Eastern people and a source of pride. The Rosenbergs religion is mentioned and they were convicted spies. The truth is always best. Most people don’t condemn someone because of their ancestry, but sadly a few always will. Botendaddy 12:14, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

It is right that we don't get the full extent of a biography without early life, especially the biography of a criminal. But the thing is we can't put what there aren't references for. We all know that Jimmy Savile was a Catholic and Jared Fogle was a Jew because there were numerous references far before those two became criminals. Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:10, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I did find a valid reference for Nassar's parents. I also found a possible reference that he is of middle eastern extraction which is obvious, but there is no hard source for it. One source claimed he was Muslim, but it seems odd that he would be married in a church and there is no other evidence for this. Most Nassars in Michigan from skimming obits, seem to be Palestinian Christians. Another phenomena, is that when someone gets in big trouble, a lot of online sources evaporate on purpose to avoid any connection. Like if your restaurant website had smiling pics of Jerry Sandusky, you probably wanted to scrub it ASAP. Bottom line, it is valid to state religion and ethnicity, but not without a reputable source. Botendaddy 19:04, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

His personal religious beliefs were obviously not prominent, so I don't see why would it matter if he was a Mormon, Christian, Pastafarian, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, Scientologist or whatever the kids these days believe. WP:UNDUE. As for parents, and their background - meh. If you folks think it's so important, so be it. BytEfLUSh _Talk 00:17, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

It’s not that these things are that important, but that they seem to be standard for a biography of living persons on Wikipedia. Please look at at a few other completely unrelated bios of comparable people. Botendaddy 06:51, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

The problem is we have yet to see a reliable source saying he is one or the other explicitly. There is a reliable source that says he got married in a Roman Catholic church but like it is stated above " We all know that Jimmy Savile was a Catholic and Jared Fogle was a Jew because there were numerous references far before those two became criminals." But I agree with BytEfLUSh, I don't see the importance but I'll go with it if there is a reliable source. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement. No reliable source at this point. Botendaddy 07:04, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Even if we find a source saying he was born Muslim, I don't think it qualifies to be put in a category (at the bottom of the page) per WP:BLPCAT which says "should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief (or lack of such) or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources." So even if the consensus is that he got married at Roman Catholic Church so therefore he is Roman Catholic I don't even know if that could be a category unless he self-identifies as it. He could have gotten married there to appease his wife. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 05:48, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Not to start a flame war, but... It is a standard procedure in Wikipedia to cite a person’s national origin, ethnicity and religion as part of their early life section. No it doesn’t need to be a category if they are not renowned for those characteristics and yes it needs a reliable source to even be cited, but by way of example, see the bios of the Rosenbergs, Bernie Madoff, Al Capone and so on. Botendaddy 01:18, 6 February 2018 (UTC) Botendaddy 01:18, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Personal Life Correction

The current article states that Nassar decided to run for the Holt School Board despite charges made against him.

An article in the Lansing State Journal (the leading newspaper for the Lansing area which includes Holt) states that: Nassar told the State Journal in September, after the allegations were made, that he was no longer pursing the seat but it was too late to withdraw his name from the ballot. https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/11/09/msu-doctor-sexual-assault-election/93546324/

The timeline published by the IndyStar indicates that charges against him came after the election on Nov. 16. https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2016/09/20/larry-nassar-timeline/90733320/

Might make sense to edit to something like this:

Nassar lost a bid for election to the Holt Public School Board in 2016. Prior to the election as allegations surfaced, Nassar said he was withdrawing from the race, but it was too late to remove his name from the ballot. Of three candidates running for two seats, he came in last place, receiving 21 percent of the votes. (with the two references cited above)

SpartanJill (talk) 20:12, 30 March 2018 (UTC)SpartanJill

What exactly did Larry Nassar do?

What exactly did Larry Nassar do? Is there a reason why it is inappropriate to state specifically what the reported “sexual abuse” or “sexual assault” refer to? It could be “inappropriate touching” (which is sometimes termed very innocent) to groping, finger penetration (sometimes done routinely medically) to outright forced rape. Wouldn’t it be appropriate to state what he did? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.250.150.28 (talk) 20:58, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2018

Under "Fallout", there is a spelling error in the last sentence attached to source [52]. "Preceived" should be spelled "perceived". Greenishkiwis (talk) 15:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:06, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Updates which may be needed

I think this needs adding to here and to the USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal article. "The total number of women and girls who say they are survivors in the Larry Nassar case is now around 500. Michigan State University reached a $500 million settlement with 332 survivors in May, and the Michigan Legislature extended the time survivors could come forward with a claim through September 10." From OCT 19, 2018 - Jclaxp talk 12:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Does Athlete A need merging into this article and the USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal article? It's also not been added to either of the articles. Jclaxp talk 12:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I also think both of these need cleaning up to be more readable. I find them hard to digest in their current form. Jclaxp talk 12:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

He was a professor at MSU’s College of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.), not the Collage of Human Medicine (M.D.). Confusingly, Michigan State University has two separate medical schools. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.123.126 (talk) 23:57, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

The intro sentence

The introductory sentence is a mess. Is there a better way of phrasing it that rolls off the tongue better? Sergei zavorotko (talk) 01:24, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Jail

Stay in jail forever 120.16.35.105 (talk) 02:39, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

suggested edit

This: "hundreds of girls and young women whom he sexually abused"

Should say this: "hundreds of girls and young women; many of whom he sexually abused"

Tondelleo Schwarzkopf (talk) 14:10, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggested Edit

Remove "Thus, he would never truly be a free man again if he were to be released." While true, this can be inferred from the preceding sentences and is basically fluff. 2603:3023:180:4800:1927:CB0A:7E3A:A0AE (talk) 19:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Dates Active

In gray general article summary, Mr. Nassar's "years active" dates are shown as 1978-2019. This means that he would have been a physician at age 15. I do not know the actual year he became a physician, so this is not a proposed change as such, merely pointing out that a correction should be made, and I do not know where to get that information. 72.19.53.89 (talk) 06:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The cited sources state that he started his career as a student athletic trainer while in high school so that is why the "years active" are they way they are. Shearonink (talk) 18:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

RE: "While some gymnasts have said they complained about Nassar's behavior in the early 1990s,[7] it was not until 2015 that USA Gymnastics took action against him." This is an error in comprehension -- nothing in the citation 7 (https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/19191934/new-complaints-larry-nassar-allege-sexual-abuse-dates-1992) says the complaints occurred in the early 1990s. Rather there was a new complaint on 4/19/17, but about abuse that occurred in 1992. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.20.18 (talk) 18:26, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

You're right it was an error, so I fixed that for you. That particular cite (ESPN1992) didn't back up the "while some gymnasts..." statement, but complaints were made about Nasser's behavior to Michigan State officials, dating back to at least 1997 but they weren't acted upon. Nothing happened until 2015...See the new cite and adjusted text. You're welcome. Shearonink (talk) 22:57, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Recent edit about Nassar's ethnicity

Recent IP edit - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Larry_Nassar&curid=55762330&diff=1164695886&oldid=1164687602 - removed a statement about Nassar's ethnicity. The previously-stated information might be true or accepted as "truth" but this edit/excision was absolutely correct. Afterwards I spot-checked multiple references and could find no sourced information mentioning Nassar's ethnicity/family background. Unless sourced reliable information can be found to back up the previous statement the edit should be left as is. Shearonink (talk) 15:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Quick unrelated question. Should Nassar be labed a rapist? He sexually molested lots of girls, but saw no allocations of rape. 2601:681:8300:8600:1F1:B3BA:C996:3F7E (talk) 08:39, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Good question. (I suspect you mean "allegation" rather than "allocations".) Only one of the sources we use says "rape". Not all sexual abuse or sexual molestation is rape. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The man is a monster who sexually molested and/or raped hundreds of people. "Rape" doesn't have to be the stereotypical penile penetration and he was sued in 2018 by Erika Davis for rape. I am fine with calling him what he is. Shearonink (talk) 15:17, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

He did rape (as in the insertion of a male p*nis into a female sexual organ) as a few of his survivors revealed 126.213.121.24 (talk) 06:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Per "ethnicity" assertion: I just now added citation needed templates to the statements about Nassar's ethnicity and also about his birthdate. None of the various cited refs I checked actually stated his ethnic background or his actual birthdate. Shearonink (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)