Talk:Lara Jill Miller

Sourcing for statements about religious beliefs

The article currently says that Miller is Jewish, but I can't find direct support for that in the sources cited. The article on Hairspray extras and the Morning Call obituary only say that her parents are Jewish, and neither the first part nor the second part of the interview includes a direct discussion of religion, as far as I can tell. Looking for alternate references, I didn't find any place where Miller speaks publicly about her religious beliefs. That means the current sources fall short of the standards for assigning religious categories, and I'm guessing they also fall short of the standards for article text.

Categories regarding religious beliefs (or lack of such) or sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief (or lack of such) or orientation in question, and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their public life or notability, according to reliable published sources.

— Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons

To balance the risks of erasing and assuming beliefs while this gets sorted out, I've updated the article to say only that Miller's parents are Jewish, but I've kept the 20th-century American Jews, 21st-century American Jews, and Jewish American actresses categories for now. The American people of Jewish descent category seems to fit this situation, but it was recently removed as part of a mass edit. @Bohemian Baltimore, It would be helpful to understand why that tag was removed, and how to best bring the current tags into alignment with the standards for biographies of living people. Vectornaut (talk) 21:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Vectornaut Characterizing Jewishness as a purely religious identity is a common non-Jewish mistake. Often done in good faith, I'm certain, but it is rooted in a misunderstanding of how Jewish identity works. Jews are an ethnoreligious community. "Jewish" is not an exclusively religious term or religious category. Many Jewish people have no religious beliefs at all. She was born to and raised by two Jewish parents; her ethnicity is clearly Jewish. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 21:48, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Bohemian Baltimore: I agree that it's important to discuss Jewishness both as a religious identity and as an ethnic identity in people's biographies. I'm under the impression that Wikipedia typically shows ethnic identity using categories like "Actors of — descent". I can see how the use of "Jewish descent" categories might be especially fraught, so I was hoping that you could point me to the policy pages and discussions where this stuff is worked out.

When I was looking for alternate references, I also didn't find any source where Miller speaks directly about her ethnic identity, or any citable source that assigns a Jewish ethnic identity to her. This is another place where I'd appreciate pointers to relevant policy pages and discussions.

It seems clear that Miller's Jewish descent, and possible Jewish identity, are an important part of her professional biography. For example, fan pages and fan posts about The Ghost and Molly McGee talk appreciatively about Libby and other Jewish characters being voiced by Jewish actors. It also seems clear to me, however, that more formal sources are cautious about assigning identity. For example, a blog post from the Jewish Women's Archive highlights Libby as a Jewish character without describing Miller as a Jewish actor—in contrast with its description of Princess Rebecca from Elena of Avalor as a Latina Jewish character voiced by a Cuban-Jewish actor. There should be a way for Miller's article text and categories to balance these things. Vectornaut (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Vectornaut It has been my impression that the "of Jewish descent" categories are used for non-Jewish people who have Jewish ancestry. EG, a person with a Jewish father and a Catholic mother who was raised and identifies as Catholic. An ethnic Jew - or cultural Jew or secular Jew, there are many terms one could use - is not simply a "person of Jewish descent". An ethnic Jew remains ethnically Jewish for their entire life. The only time I can think of where it could be argued that somebody "stops" being Jewish might be if they convert to another religion, and even then it is arguable whether that person "stops being" ethnically Jewish. Religious denominations have their own definitions of Jewishness (EG, Orthodoxy requires matrilineal descent, while American Reform accepts patrilineal descent), but I don't think Wikipedia has any place wading into those sorts of halakhic questions. I have not seen any formal Wiki guidelines on how to refer to Jewish identity. I've asked, because I have seen (presumably Orthodox) editors try to remove Jewish references and categories from biographic articles of Jewish people who are considered Jewish by non-Orthodox communities (EG, a Reconstructionist convert or a patrilineal Reform Jew). This happened with Nancy Fraser, despite the fact she identifies as Jewish. I would say that having two Jewish parents establishes a person's Jewishness, unless there's a source where the person rejects their Jewishness such as converts to another religion. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@Bohemian Baltimore: (I think I messed up the mention in the comment above by adding it in a modification instead of including it in the original. This new comment should actually send a notification.) Vectornaut (talk) 00:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Edit semi-protected

Please mention in a Personal Life section about her advocacy for FTD. https://www.mcall.com/health/mc-xpm-2012-02-13-mc-lara-jill-miller-ftd-20120213-story.html 2600:100C:A202:871A:64A8:B1D3:E727:6EF6 (talk) 23:32, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)