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Pronunciation

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Peter Lalor (who no-one really disputes is pronounced LAW-la), was an Irish-born Australian, who had the Melbourne suburb and federal electorate of Lalor named after him—and the railway station named for the suburb. Just because many people have in recent times tended to pronounce the suburb and railway station (and to a much lesser extent the federal electorate) as LAY-lor or LAY-la, does not mean that the official pronunciation changes to reflect an error. Some may think that "everyone" calls them LAY-lor these days, but many still pronounce them LAW-la as this is what they grew up with and remember as correct. If more people over time erroneously start to pronounce Peter Lalor personal name as LAY-lor, this will not mean it is correct. Neither should this be the case for the suburb or station or electorate.—Supt. of Printing (talk) 10:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not disputing the fact that Peter Lalor's name is pronounced /ˈloːlə/; the Macquarie Dictionary even gives this pronunciation — for Peter Lalor only. What people pronounced the suburb and railway station's name years ago does not have a bearing on how it is pronounced today. Wikipedia is descriptive not prescriptive and as such we have to use what is prevalent today — what is used on the ground by the people today — and many, if not most, in both the suburb and in the greater Melbourne region now pronounce the suburb and station names /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/.
There is no such thing as official pronunciation, this does not exist in the English language. You're only right with Peter Lalor's name that anyone pronouncing his name /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/ would be in error, but a person's name is different to a place name. A place name does not have to keep the original pronunciation, which can change over time and that is what has happened with respect to Lalor, where the pronunciation for the suburb and railway station has become /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/. This phenomenon has occurred to many other place or object names all over the world, where their current pronunciations have changed from their original pronunciations. It's all part of language evolution. – Marco79 15:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the basis of what you have said above about Wikipedia being descriptive rather than prescriptive, it can't be asserted that /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/ is the correct pronunciation either, so I have changed the entry to recognise both pronunciations. Is it acceptable then, to be prescriptive about the pronunciation for the federal electorate of Lalor?
Mind you, I don't agree with you about there being no such thing as official pronunciations, nor do I agree that there is a difference between a person's name and a place name when it comes to pronunciations—can you give any substantiation for this claim?—Supt. of Printing (talk) 11:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True, either pronunciation of /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/ or /ˈloːlə/ cannot be regarded as correct pronunciations, but /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/ can be considered the predominate pronunciation, whilst some may use the /ˈloːlə/ pronunciation.
I don't know about the proper pronunciation of the name for the federal seat of Lalor, but there are a few people who do pronounce it /ˈlæɪlə, -loː/, even though many — including the current and former sitting members of the seat — pronounce it /ˈloːlə/.
There are a few places that are named after another place or person that are pronounced differently to what they may have originally been. For example:
and there are more. – Marco79 06:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought that Mount Everest was generally pronounced /ˈevərɨst, ˈevrɨst/. And to Taswegians, the pronunciation of Launceston would be /ˈlɒnsɛstən, ˈlɔnsestən/. Nevertheless, I still think that where a place has been named after a person, the pronunciation of that person's name should be the pronunciation that is promoted for the place and is declared as an official pronunciation—including the ones you mention above. In fact , I seem to remember that a few years ago there was a move to promote the pronunciation of Kościuszko the person, as the correct one for the mountain.—Supt. of Printing (talk) 11:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mount Everest is pronounced /ˈevərɪst, ˈevrɪst/, but Sir George Everest pronounced his name /ˈiːvrɪst/, and the Taswegians pronounced their city's name differently from how its namesake is pronounced by the English in England. The common pronunciation of "Kosiuszko" in English is still /kɔziːˈɔskəʉ/ as indicated in the Macquarie Dictionary, but the person it was named after is pronounced somewhat like /kɔˈʃʊʃkəʉ/ — as also indicated in the Macquarie Dictionary — and some do use this pronunciation, but /kɔziːˈɔskəʉ/ is still the most common pronunciation.
Whether you think a place's pronunciation should use the pronunciation that it's named after is your POV and has no bearing on what should be used in Wikipedia. The pronunciation that should be used is what the local residents of those places use — that would be descriptive and most suitable for Wikipedia. – Marco79 17:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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