Talk:Labyrinth of Buda Castle

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What happened when they closed the Labyrinth? there is no information to find on the internet. Is this part of all the other strange things happening in Hungary lately?

On 29 July 2011 the police and members of the Inspectorate for the Environment stormed the Labyrinth of Buda Castle. Large numbers of Hungarian and foreign tourists were simply forced to leave the system of cellars. Foreign tourists were at a loss to understand the reasons of the raid and many believed there had been an attempted or actual terror attack.

The staff of the Labyrinth were equally shocked. They were ordered to gather their belongings immediately, during which time they prohibited from going anywhere without surveillance, and our female staff were not even allowed to lock the toilet door.

The headquarters and the offices of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle were force-evacuated with immediate effect, preventing in a premeditated way the Company from doing its business, building its defence in various court proceedings and even from being available. Why?

What could possibly have led to the type of police action reminiscent of the bleakest periods of Hungarian history? The Labyrinth of Buda Castle is not a terrorist hub or a drug den, but a cultural attraction, classified as one of the Seven Underground Wonders of the World.

Various individuals and organisations have since 2002 sought to snatch the rights to the area and, in actions including the recent raid, to nationalise or usurp it in a way that the Company operating the system of cellars should not have to be compensated for the thirty years of technical, intellectual, tourism and marketing investments it has put into the Labyrinth, and worse, to discredit the Company in every possible way.

After many illegal acquisition attempts were foiled in court, yet another unwarranted, forceful police action took place in 2008 on the premises of the Labyrinth. All accusations were denied and the brutal and illegal actions condemned in all proceedings and on every level of court, and the Company won the case.

The recent attack differs from the 2008 raid in that this time the interested circles are seeking to establish an irreversible situation (through judicial vacations, depriving the Company of its own offices, etc.). The director of the Middle-Danube-Valley Inspectorate for Environmental Protection lied without batting an eyelid to the cameras, as he did in press releases published in several electronic or printed media. Cited as conclusive evidence, the fact that the Supreme Court rejected the submissions of the Company is simply not true. Most of the director's statements were false or unjustified, merely serving to legitimise the atrocities that provoked a public outcry. Moreover, the Inspectorate never submitted to the appellate body the petition for the suspension of execution.

In 2008 it was the lack of a tourism permission, this time it is the lack of a land use permit and damage to the environment that is being referred to. The fact that we are looking at pretexts for nationalisation is confirmed by the fact that the exhibitions of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle -- built over the past 30 years and unchanged since -- have been known to the Inspectorate for decades and it has never raised any objection. They have had the chance to do so for long, but never did. Until now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnneMorits (talk • contribs) 05:57, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

We visited the caves in September 2013. They are no longer closed 194.7.114.2 (talk) 11:49, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I also visited earlier this year. Richard Clegg (talk) 11:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

What is now? You can read all of the details about the Labyrinth of Buda Castle here: http://labirintus.com/splash_details_en.php --Budavarilabirintus2016 (talk) 10:44, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Coordinate error - Labyrinth of Buda Castle exhibition closed, Arts organization: N47°30'37.19" E19°1'33.02 / Budapest, Fény u. 18, 1024 Hungary

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The following coordinate fixes are needed for N47°30'37.19" E19°1'33.02 - It's correct.

—77.234.45.143 (talk) 22:13, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. Your coordinates don't appear to be correct for the labyrinth itself. There may be, or may have been, and exhibition dealing with the labyrinth there, but the actual labyrinth is described as being in the Castle Hill, some distance to the south. Deor (talk) 05:03, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Coordinate error

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The Labyrith of Buda Castle want to be protected because an editor (Pallerti) is constantly sending false geodata, misleading and unlawful. Please take a decision to suspend the Labyrith of Buda Castle and its geodesist. Thank you. —Labgeo (talk) 21:07, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't know what fights over turf (or competing exhibits) are inspiring the continual coordinate changes in this article, but the edit warring has to stop. I doubt, however, that any coordinates can be considered "unlawful". As I said in the section immediately above on this page, the best information I've been able to find is that the cave-and-cellar system itself is located in the Castle Hill, and Pallerti's coordinates seem to best reflect that location. I see that you've been blocked (by Pallerti) in the Hungarian Wikipedia, and my advice is to let the matter drop, or you may be blocked here as well. For now, I'm semi-protecting this article for a month; you and Pallerti and any other interested editors should discuss the matter on this talk page to see whether some satisfactory resolution can be arrived at. Deor (talk) 17:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

@Deor: The situation is not as complicated as it seems at first glance, however overview is not made easy by the fact that this user has created more than twenty sockpuppets. He has made legal threats on huwiki and on OTRS (therefore he and all his socks are blocked), he runs discrediting websites. The site Budavári Labirintus (Labyrinth of Buda Castle) is protected on huwiki. The grounds for his motivation: Budavári Labirintus, part of the Buda Castle cave system, a tourist attraction has been operated since the 1980s by this editor (or rather his company) on a rental base. The rental contract was terminated by the owner city district in 2011 (allegedly he did not pay rent, and also in order to keep the condition of the cave, though it is irrelevant from the Wikipedia point of view). He cannot accept this decision and he works on discrediting the new operator of the cave every possible way which we see in the articles in various languages. Even the eviction process was scandalous, he was not willing to leave the premises so police help had to be called for. This user claims that the name Budavári Labirintus is his legal property and the address of the warehouse he uses to store the exhibits he has salvaged from the cave is the new address of Budavári Labirintus. He wants to push this new address in the geographycal data of the article, which is nonsense as the warehouse is not even in Buda Castle. The labirynth is currently run by a new operator, the previous lessee, our user claims that his intellectualy property has been stolen. To enlighten the situation so that it is clear for someone with no local knowledge: assume that one rents the London Tower for exhibitions, then, after the cancellation of the rental contract, he stores the exhibits in a warehouse in another district of London and claims it is the „real” London Tower. --Pallerti (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

What Pallerti says is wrong or not true. The aim of Pallerti is to bring the new operator to a better marketing position. However, Wikipedia is not a marketing partner for an entrepreneur. In Hungary, there are a lot of complaints about the self-sufficiency of Wikipedia's editors. The community site reacted to this. "The grounds for his motivation: Budavári Labirintus, part of the Buda Castle cave system..." writes Pallerti. He consciously misleads the reader. In addition, it is opposite to its own "Buda Castle Cave" article, where it is described that the Labyrinth is an exhibition has moved from the Buda Castle. (1st sentence of the article) https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai_V%C3%A1r-barlang. In addition: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budav%C3%A1ri_Labirintus.

The Labyrinth of Buda Castle article (enwiki & huwiki), the photos etc. are our creations. We are not creating a drakula product, but a european literary and artistic project. There is no doubt that we have initiated procedures to protect our name, honor and heritage. However, trademark protection is not a Wikipedia debate because the factum, and Wikipedia can not stand over the courts. The judgment is final. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.122.43 (talk • contribs) 2017. május 8., 15:00 (UTC)

Trademarks link: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjVV0GbgFQVIg9xwpFN6CWsudUOG6A

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budav%C3%A1ri+Labirintus+-+Labyrinth+of+Buda+Castle/@47.510304,19.0237973,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xd29e9ead132b416d!8m2!3d47.510304!4d19.025986?authuser=5'''Italic text — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.45.156 (talk • contribs) 2017. május 7., 23:29 (UTC)

The Labyrint of Buda Castle is not a place in Castle Cave, but an Arts Organization. One brand, trademark protection. The Hungarian Court has also prohibited the present owner from using the namesake. The exhibition was nationalized in 2011, so we moved from Buda Castle, but our company name did not change. Example: The Berlin Café is not a berlin cordinatates.

The official name of the place is Buda Castle Cave - http://www.termeszetvedelem.hu/index.php?pg=cave_4762-1.

The current operator, a former political secretary of state, has temporarily nationalized our exhibitions, and our heritage wants to live. Unfortunately, a small group of Hungarian Wikipedia participated in such a way that, for this reason, the owner of the trademark group and intellectual property rights were also initiated.

The current operator, (a former political secretary of state, has nationalized our exhibitions), our heritage wants to live. Unfortunately, a small group of Hungarian Wikipedia participated in such a way that, for this reason, the owner of the trademark group and intellectual property rights were also initiated.

Editing Talk in Hungarian Wikipedia? A few days ago all the editors were excluded, exactly 21, from the discussion, only left those who created this status. Unfortunately, in Hungary in all respects this kind of sadness is in the situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wamphunt (talk • contribs) 20:36, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

It is strange that we seek protection and shut us out. The current headquarters of the art organization is the essence, not the combination of its name and brand. In addition, exclusion was raised here as well, but they have been protesting in Hungary against this process. Pallerti blocked 12 editors - for 4 years. (Even those who do not participate in this debate as they protested in 2011 when the exhibition was closed with police force because of a political gain). "I doubt, however, that any coordinates can be considered" unlawful ".But yes, because the new operator leverages our 30-year history and benefits from it. While benefiting the operator, we need to handle complaints from our audience. Another example is: if there is a temporary exhibition in a place (for example, in a museum), if the show is over, the exhibitor will carry his name, of course, the place with its permanent name. Here: Buda Castle Cave is the place. The Labyrinth of Buda Castle is the exhibitor. The fact is the fact: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budav%C3%A1ri+Labirintus+-+Labyrinth+of+Buda+Castle/@47.510304,19.0237973,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0xd29e9ead132b416d!8m2!3d47.510304!4d19.025986?authuser=5. This does not require 1 month. So please correct our coordinates in real terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eugreatminds (talk • contribs) 00:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

protest and solidarity for Labyrinth of Buda Castle - in name editors of 35 country https://facebook.com/euGreatMinds/ 2017 http://eugreatminds.com/ - European Cultural Choice https://www.facebook.com/notes/great-minds-of-europe/european-cultural-choices-2017/1218678144839025/ - 2016 Started here: Labyrint of Buda castle, 2011 http://www.labirintus.com/en/programs/night/#wanderings

It is not Dracul-projekt present in the Buda Caste Cave!

In Hungary The Castle Cave and "Labyrint of Buda Castle": current operator has stolen our name, our 30-year-old heritage, our core picture of our organization, and even our facebook camps (!). We do not need Wikipedia, we have started deleting them in Hungary, and they are not here. https://www.google.hu/search?gs_ivs=1&q=Budav%C3%A1ri+labirintus And this can prevent abuse and fraud. E.G. trademark-group - and project leader — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eugeatminds hu (talk • contribs) 2017. május 7., 07:54 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia.en Administrators, Dear @Deor:,

In respect of the article ‘Labyrinth of Buda Castle’ and related photo resources, we ask you to arrange for the removal of the geocoordinates from all places where it has been embedded on wiki platforms or has been connected to other Internet databases.

This article is about the Labyrinth of Buda Castle (Budavári Labirintus) exhibition and cultural programs, and not the Buda Castle Cave (Budai Vár-barlang).

The Labyrinth of Buda Castle exhibition, the related programs and content is an intellectual property registered by the Hungarian Intellectual Property Office and, as a protected trademark, is distinguished from the services of others.

Link to the trademark: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AjVV0GbgFQVIg9xwpFN6CWsudUOG6A

On the Wiki surfaces, the geocoordinates specified in the article ‘Labyrinth of Buda Castle’ refer to one of the entrances of Buda Castle Cave (Budapest, District I, Úri street 9), which misleads thousands of visitors on search platforms.

The Labyrinth of Buda Castle exhibitions and programs were open to visitors from 1984 to 2011 in the Buda Castle Cave, gaining international recognition during this period.

In 2011, the Labyrinth of Buda Castle exhibitions, programs and cultural institution was closed down in the Buda Castle Cave.

• In the background of this closure, authoritative interests lied. Untrue official announcements also referred to by Pallerti was issued to influence the public. The closure procedure was found unlawful by the court proceedings of the Budapest Metropolitan Court. Also, investigations were initiated in respect of misuse of office as the section of the Buda Castle Cave completely reconstructed by the Labyrinth of Buda Castle Ltd. and made suitable for visiting and utilization was transferred by the acting organizations to a company established by a Ministry employee.

The Buda Castle Cave was subjected to many vicissitudes since its discovery with a highly degraded condition (leading to the collapsing of the road above it). Certain parts of it were tried to be utilized for short periods, but due to deterioration, the Buda Castle Cave was always closed shortly afterwards. Up to now, the only successful utilization was the project realized by the Labyrinth of Buda Castle Ltd., performing reconstruction works and investments to make it permanently suitable for visiting.

According to information obtained from the press, the current operator acted for a year in the Ministry of Rural Development to ruin the operation of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle Ltd, and to acquire the utilization rights of the place. Taking possession of the place, they not only benefit from the investments of others, but they misuse the name, reputation and intellectual properties of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle in order to generate profits.

The current operator of Buda Castle Cave was found guilty by the Municipal Court of Budapest, the Municipal Court of Appeal and the Hungarian Supreme Court for trademark infringement, and was ordered to cease trademark infringement and was forbidden from similar conduct.

All three High Judicial Council examined and verified that the Labyrinth of Buda Castle exhibition operated in the Buda Castle Cave from 1984 to 2011; the Labyrinth of Buda Castle is not equal to or part of Buda Castle Cave; the Labyrinth Of Buda Castle is not a geographic location; the Labyrinth of Buda Castle is a protected trademark and designation; and the operator of the Buda Castle Cave commits trademark infringement.

The current operator of the Buda Castle Cave continued unlawful conduct, including in Google Maps. Google Maps and Wiki platforms have a significant impact on search engines. As a result of unlawful conduct, our name, intellectual properties, Facebook community of 34 thousand people, Wikipedia articles are misleadingly linked in Internet infoboxes with the Wikipedia article on Buda Castle Cave and the data relating to the operator of Buda Castle Cave selling tickets under several company names.

We distance ourselves from the operation and programs of these companies.

We contacted Google and the property manager of Buda Castle Cave in connection with the unlawful conduct.

We would like to ask the admins of en.wiki to help us cease the unlawful state on wiki surfaces.

In 2014-2015, we requested the termination of unlawful conduct at Wikipedia. Finally, despite our protest, our previous article title was renamed to Buda Castle Cave, the content was removed, and a new page was opened for the Labyrinth of Buda Castle, which was offered to us for editing. Since then it has come to our attention that an image of the entrance to the Labyrinth of Buda Castle was uploaded to the infobox of the article on Buda Castle Cave, which we asked to be removed and we also asked to cease embedding contents causing the chaos mentioned. Instead of restoring lawful state, the Hungarian administrator, Pallerti banned 20-30 people from wikipedia for a period of 10 years on the basis of false references. Pallerti arbitrarily uses the situation to further ruin the contents. As he is aware of the truth, he misleads others for economic benefits. In our opinion, the Hungarian administrator, Pallerti, is not worthy of the trust of Wikipedia users. Our editors never did any vandalism on Wikipedia, they always stated the reason for any editing and, in fact, in many cases they were the ones to cease vandalism on Wikipedia.

As a result of Pallerti’s activity, we cannot edit wiki pages any more, and this is why we ask your immediate assistance.

Our rights are seriously violated when the articles and photos of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle are linked to the geocoordinates of the Buda Castle Cave and the data of the new operator, and also it deliberately misleads others.

Further misuse of the article Labyrinth of Buda Castle could be terminated if an independent article of the Buda Castle Cave were created or translated: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai_V%C3%A1r-barlang

We are awaiting for the settlement of the case as soon as possible, to enforce and respect the trademark rights and final court decisions.

Yours sincerely,Labjogen (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

I read your comment, but I'm unable to adjudicate Hungarian legal disputes and incompetent to investigate them. (I don't read or speak Hungarian.) Perhaps this article should be revised to clearly deal with the actual caverns/cellars in Castle Hill rather than with any particular exhibition, since those seem to be a notable topic, whereas the particular exhibits may not be. I don't know enough about the topic to do that myself; I've left a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hungary, directing editors here, in order to get some fresh opinions. Deor (talk) 17:54, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

This is already frivolous. Playing the admins together. Its implications go beyond Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Labgeo (talk • contribs) 14:22, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

This is either intellectual prostitution or material corruption. But it's definitely a fraud. The law is law, and court decisions Pallerti(s), Deor(s) can’t overwrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.40.180 (talk) 19:02, 9 June 2017 (UTC) https://plus.google.com/u/1/+Wikip%C3%A9diaBudaiV%C3%A1rbarlang https://plus.google.com/u/1/+ProjectDracula ...shame — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.234.40.180 (talk) 19:22, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Unreferenced material

At this edit I have removed the large amounts of unreferenced material, and also the disputed coordinates. Please do not re-insert without consensus here. If suitable references can be supplied, this article might be redirected to a new section of Buda Castle, on the cave and tunnel system. Which sounds very interesting. But we need good references. Richard Keatinge (talk) 19:37, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

@Richard Keatinge: This is the best way. We do not even care if the entire article is deleted because then all abuses will cease. It is impossible to nationalize violence and, moreover, abuse our name for five years. I ask you to delete the coordinates so that the general public will not be misleading more:

https://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Labyrinth_of_Buda_Castle&params=47.5001532_N_19.0339487_E_type:landmark_region:HU https://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Category%3ALabyrinth_of_the_Buda_Castle&params=047.500175_N_0019.034030_E_globe:Earth_class:object_region:BUDAPEST_DISTRICT_I&language=en

Or rename it to its official name "Castle Cave of Buda"/"Budai Vár-barlang" - https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai_V%C3%A1r-barlang.

We do not consider it necessary to indicate our coordinates or any Wikipedia appearance.(talk)

Coordinate error

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The following coordinate are needed delete! Labyrinth of Buda Castle closed in 2011! Unfortunately, the operator and some Hungarian Wikipedia editors abuse the name usage. In Hungary, criminal proceedings have also been initiated for fraud.

{{subst:wamphunt}}

What's going on here? It's nonsense. You should immediately abandon abuses (Pallerti, Deor etc.)

 Not done. See the section immediately above. There are no coordinates currently in the article. Deor (talk) 16:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

„Budavári Labirintus”/”Labyrinth of Buda Castle” case

The investigation concerning the „Budavári Labirintus”/”Labyrinth of Buda Castle” case has been ordered against an unknown suspect for the reasonable suspicion of fraud. The Hungarian government (it's representative, DINPI) dissociated itself from the manager's advertising behavior in april, stating in writing that they don't have any control over online search engines and it's informational boxes, therefor they forwarded april's plaint to the Labrynth of Buda Castles' manager.

It also became clear that the manager of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle isn't able to fill the infoboxes with misinforming content without the aid of Wikipedia. After some pause the frauds continue on a broad scale, both on the Hungarian and English site.As they exclude the editor from the editorial tasks in case of so called legal threatening, it stands to reason to exclude those editors of Wikipedia whom are responsible for creating this situation.

Furthermore an editor who's independent with respect to the case should get rid of the manipulations of Wikipedia that allows susception and fraud, and renounce the abuse of the trademark "Labyrinth of Buda Castle" / "Budavári Labirintus" ect. As the heads of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle (also the owners of the trademark and creating rights) we demand the deletion of the article „Budavári Labirintus”/”Labyrinth of Buda Castle” edited by us, because this is what the frauds are based on, whereas on the English site they either ruthlessly simplify the content or they exclude everyone who stands up for the sake of factual and legitimate content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.145.171.117 (talk) 09:39, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Richard Keatinge: As the heads of the Labyrinth of Buda Castle (also the owners of the trademark and creating rights) we demand the deletion of the article „Budavári Labirintus”/”Labyrinth of Buda Castle” edited by us, because this is what the frauds are based on, whereas on the English site they either ruthlessly simplify the content or they exclude everyone who stands up for the sake of factual and legitimate content.

In this case, it is relevant that, as I've mentioned before, the article lacks suitable references and the exhibition you talk about does not appear to be sufficiently notable to justify an article. I have moved the gallery (geolocation coordinates of all pictures place them on/under Buda Castle itself) to Buda Castle, and the article now consists entirely of a redirect to that page. I hope that suits everyone, but I hope even more that this change is an improvement to our encyclopedia. Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:14, 23 June 2017 (UTC)