Talk:Labour Party (UK)/Archive 16

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Ideology in the infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Following the recent productive discussion about democratic socialism in the infobox, I believe we should address what was not addressed in that discussion; neoliberalism and third way in the infobox. I support it having neoliberalism and third way in the infobox.

Please begin messages with either Support including neoliberalism or Oppose including neoliberalism, as well as either Support including third way or Oppose including third way. Or just comment, or some other opinion/ideology (not socialism though, already have consensus to remove that.). A Socialist Trans Girl 08:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Neoliberalism is the economic paradigm which governing parties across the political spectrum have followed for the last forty years. Even leftist parties, such as Syriza, and neofascist parties, such as Meloni's Brothers of Italy, have governed as neoliberals.

If we follow your suggestion, then every party would be labelled as neoliberal. However, despite similarities in government, political parties retain distinct ideologies.

Third Way is ambiguous because it literally means a position that is an alternative to two established ones. What those two positions and the alternative are is however unclear. Both Fascists and Blairites for example presented themselves as a third way. TFD (talk) 09:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong, Fascists are Third Positonists, Third Way is a liberal Ideology.

Third Way on The Polcompball Wiki RegierungDavidlands1852 (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's a mostly economic position.

Do you have an alternative suggestion for what ideology it should be? A Socialist Trans Girl 10:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Support including third way,

Oppose including neoliberalism RegierungDavidlands1852 (talk) 10:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Aristotle Kallis and Norberto Bobbio among other leading experts use the term "third way" to describe the fascist attempt to position themselves between liberal individualism and socialism,[1] which incidentally is what Blair attempted to do. Note also that Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. saw centrism as an alternative to the extremes of communism and fascism, making it a form of third way as well.

Any party in a three or multiple party system can be described as a third way. So Nigel Farage is a third way between Labour's socialism and the Tory's support for traditional social hierarchy. A roofer who doesn't want to be taxed by Labour or looked down upon by Tory aristocrats can find a third way with Reform. TFD (talk) 10:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, this is WP:OR, you need to provide sources. I’ve already provided one academic source that argues Labour are anti-neoliberal. Kowal2701 (talk) 10:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's some sources on it (use as appropriate):

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2023/08/09/this-country-does-not-need-a-neoliberal-labour-party/

https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/resources/sociology-online-papers/papers/jessop-from-thatcherism-to-new-labour.pdf

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/ed-miliband-new-labour/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0745627412

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3676360

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/030857590803200409

https://jacobin.com/2020/01/third-way-democratic-socialism-tony-blair-bill-clinton-uk

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554573_3

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10379456/

https://www.manchesterhive.com/display/9781526137883/9781526137883.00017.xml A Socialist Trans Girl 11:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Tbf lots of sources support this. I'd support Third Way, since neoliberalism is within that Kowal2701 (talk) 11:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Forgot about social liberalism

Okay uhh I forgot about social liberalism. I support adding social liberalism. This is just a new seperate section to discuss social liberalism and sources for and against it, I guess. Sorry for forgetting it at the start. A Socialist Trans Girl 11:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose since this is within 'Social democracy', the convention appears to have gotten much stricter around how many ideologies to have in the parameter Kowal2701 (talk) 11:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@User:Czello I don't think the previous discussion had that much discussion regarding other ideologies, it was mostly about the removal of democratic socialism, which I think we largely got done with with consensus on removing democratic socialism as the main goal, which happened. There's still a lot more discussion on the other ideologies to be had I believe. Could we please re-open the discussion? A Socialist Trans Girl 12:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I counted five people who agreed with the closing consensus, which included users that were previously in support of additional labels being added. I'm going to have to disagree that there wasn't enough discussion around them - I saw a fair amount, which persistently had a lot of resistance to each label for different reasons. I think instead of re-opening that discussion we really need to be drawing the #Political_positions to a close now. — Czello ^(music) 12:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:Consensus can change, we should wait at least six months for more sources Kowal2701 (talk) 12:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree, I think there's a distinct chance more sources can appear six months from now. — Czello ^(music) 12:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Czello If I were to find sources not previously mentioned nor considered which support it, would that be grounds to re-opening it before the 6 months? A Socialist Trans Girl 04:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Again I'm not in charge here so don't take my word as authoritative if you think there's good reason to reopen the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

oki A Socialist Trans Girl 08:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Czello Okay. Discussion of other adding ideologies would be okay though since they weren't discussed nor mentioned in the consensus, right? A Socialist Trans Girl 12:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

If you want to open a new discussion to propose new ideologies (other than neoliberalism, Third Way, or social liberalism - as they were all covered by the previous discussion) then, sure. But remember it's all going to have to be thoroughly sourced and avoiding WP:OR or personal interpretation. Honestly, I think it'd be a wasted effort as I can't see the discussion developing further than it did, and I think people are exhausted from the last one - but hey, I don't WP:OWN this page. — Czello ^(music) 12:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, we reached a consensus that Labour is a social democratic party. Surely this means by definition that it is a centre-left party? Can we just remove the ‘under discussion’ tag from that bit of the infobox? KronosAlight (talk) 18:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The political position is still under a separate discussion to the ideology, consensus will have to wait until that discussion is closed. Ideology and position don't go hand in hand. For instance, there are several partied labelled "Christian democratic" with labels spanning from "centre-left" to "centre-right to right-wing". Just be patient and wait for consensus. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 03:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

If a social democratic party is by definition center left, can you explain what additional information the field has for readers? Basically it is saying reliable sources categorize Labour as social democratic and Wikipedia editors classify social democracy as center left. TFD (talk) 04:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

No, its a different thing. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I agreed that it was consensus, but expressed my disagreement with it. I would still support a new motion to add "Social liberalism", "Neoliberalism", or "Third Way". – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 17:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Broad-church "social democracy" perfectly suits the Labour Party. Anything else, factional, generic, neologistic or journalistic, like "democratic socialism", "social liberalism", "progressivism", "third way" and "neoliberalism" would not be improvements for the ideology parameter of the infobox. --Checco (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Checco We don't need to replace socdem with it, we can have them alongside it. A Socialist Trans Girl 04:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Then, those additions would be redundant or misplaced. --Checco (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Checco huh? how? parties can have multiple ideologies, I don't understand A Socialist Trans Girl 23:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that there are multiple ideologies in the Labour Party? As I see it, there is agreement on ideology but differences on how they should be applied. Specifically, there is disagreement about the extent to which collective control and/or ownership of the economy should be applied.

While the Liberals, Conservatives and lastly Labour all implemented social liberal policies, there's no evidence that they adopted liberal ideology. LIberals advocated these policies on the basis that they would empower individuals so there would be a level playing field in capitalist competition. I don't know who in the Labour Party ever explained it that way. TFD (talk) 02:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces The discussion is for broader discussion of sources for and against.

And, I'm not sure what you mean; Social liberalism is a type of liberalism. From Liberalism;

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various and often mutually warring views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights.

A Socialist Trans Girl 04:37, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Social liberalism is a branch of liberalism emerged toward the end of the 19th century advocating social welfare in order to help people realize freedom. The pinnacle was the People's budget of 1906. Liberals then devised a comprehensive welfare system which was implemented by the Labour Party after WWII and continued by successive Conservative and Labour governments until the late 70s, after which both parties pursued neo-liberal policies.

The question is whether these period shifts in policy by all three parties represents a shift in ideology. Does the UK have a liberal, conservative and socialist party or does it have three neo-liberal parties which fifty years ago would have been social liberal parties and fifty years before that would have been classical liberal parties?

From a Communist perspective, all three parties are liberal and always have been. Any differences are cosmetic. While I agree somewhat with that approach, reliable sources distinguish between different parties by describing their ideologies differently. TFD (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces Sorry for late response.

You said there's no evidence that they adopted liberal ideology with a lowercase L rather than uppercase, which I interpreted as refering to liberalism and not Liberalism (the ideology of the Liberal Party). Which did you mean? please clarify.

To answer your question, I'd say it has an economically liberal conservative party (tories), a third way social liberal party (labour), and a social democratic party which used to be social liberal but has shifted left in recent years.

And, may I ask, why does the Communist perspective here matter? A Socialist Trans Girl 05:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I was unaware there was an ideology called capital-L Liberalism.

As I mentioned above, I think that you are confusing ideology with policies. While liberals pioneered modern social welfare policies in the UK, parties of all stripes adopted them for various reasons. In the modern world, only U.S. style libertarians have argued that the state should provide no form of social safety net.

I brought up the Communist perspective, because it conflates the ideologies of their opponents, based on their shared policies. Mind you, so does the far right, which considers Joe Biden and antifa working towards a common purpose.

The party line was that social welfare programs should be opposed because they strengthen the capitalist state and therefore weaken the working class. Therefore their advocates were effectively liberal. Is that your argument? TFD (talk) 12:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

For a definition of socialism, I use the Historical Dictionary of Socialism which summarizes various defintions on pp. 1-2.[2] Note that the definition allows a wide range of action, and is not limited to say Stalin in 1922, Labour in 1945 or Kim Jong un in 2024. Also, the assumptions of socialism are different from those of conservatism or liberalism. What definition do you use? TFD (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Social liberalism nor anything else should be added unless it is stated to be the ideology of the party by reliable third-party sources. Helper201 (talk) 13:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

Add Centrism to the ideology section with Social Democracy and (elements of) Democratic Socialism. I'd posit that there is enough evidence in written and verbal statements from the party leadership since 1994 (barring 2010-19) that centrism is the guiding ideology of the party. PrinceOfTheAppleTowns (talk) 09:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: We've had extensive discussions on this recently and there is a moratorium on further discussions around their political position until January 2025. — Czello ^(music) 10:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)