Talk:La venganza (2002 TV series)

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Soap Operas

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Requested move 5 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. While there is discussion over whether "telenovela" should be replaced by "TV series", there is consensus to use the year instead of a country. DrKay (talk) 22:11, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

La Venganza (Colombian telenovela) → La venganza (2002 telenovela) – It is a production of two countries. Philip J Fry _talk 10:50, 5 November 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 14:42, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - neither title conforms to WP:NCTV which does not list telenovelas as a specific exception (also, you're missing a capital V). As such, it should be moved to La Venganza (2002 TV series). The other La venganza (1977 telenovela) should be renamed in the same way. -- Netoholic @ 12:44, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The telenovelas are a separate genre and it is not the same as a TV series, for example see: Victoria (TV series) and Victoria (telenovela). The telenovelas last longer than a TV series, is something that I will not discuss; just look at the version of the article in Spanish, since "telenovela" has been used for a long time. However, titles in Spanish should not be capitalized.--Philip J Fry _talk 12:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

None of what you are saying is supported by existing guidelines. This article falls squarely within the domain of WP:NCTV. -- Netoholic @ 13:18, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Agree that by WP:NCTV (an official naming convention) the disambiguator telenovela should not be used on English Wikipedia. But it is, quite commonly but not most commonly, see Category:2017 telenovelas and other subcategories of Category:Telenovelas. More discussion required. I have posted a heads-up at the relevant WikiProject. Andrewa (talk) 14:47, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Should not allow the existence of other articles named in error to affect how we correct this one. There is no reason that a disambiguator must match the categorization - we have (TV series)-named articles in every conceivable genre category. -- Netoholic @ 18:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that we should not allow the existence of other articles named in error to affect how we correct this one. But the fact that so many others, and the categories, have used this name is IMO sufficient reason to ask whether consensus has changed on this matter. That's why I've asked for input from the WikiProject. If we get no discussion then we just go with the existing guideline of course. Andrewa (talk) 00:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See further comment below. Andrewa (talk) 07:32, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support original proposal, but retain the capital V, and oppose change to "TV series" - the lede calls it a "telenovela", so that's what the disambiguator should be if we use one. WP:NCTV invites us to name things according to special cases, not to be blindly call everything a "TV series", for example it names "(miniseries)" and "(serial)" as alternatives, so "(telenovela)" is basically another version of that. We should probably rename the telenovelas in Category:Telenovelas accordingly, so that they also say "telenovela". As for the capital V, this is the English Wikipedia not the Spanish, and English sources (and even some Spanish sources) generally capitalise the V. — Amakuru (talk) 15:56, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If (soap opera) is not listed on WP:NCTV as a valid case, then certainly telenovela should not as its a FAR less prolific subgenre. We have no special disambiguators for any genres of fictional/narrative series. The comparison to (miniseries) is irrelevant because that is a matter of format not genre. Your assertion should be dismissed by the admin closing this as you've not stated a valid position backed by any guidelines. -- Netoholic @ 05:06, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support La Venganza (2002 telenovela) per Amakuru.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:15, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also per my reply to Amakuru, this vote should be dismissed as it fails to site any compliance to an accepted guideline. -- Netoholic @ 05:08, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Netoholic: You are not an administrator, you can not deny the votes of other users, I believe that all are free to give their opinion and vote freely at your discretion, no administrator will do what you say simply because yes. Well, this is what this motion request is about, to reach a consensus on how the title of the article should go.--Philip J Fry / talk 05:43, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I am an administrator, but that doesn't give me any special authority to dismiss or accept !votes either. Only the closer has that particular job. But it's valid to comment on them, and since it's been raised, I certainly would not dismiss that one, as it gives a perfectly valid rationale. Andrewa (talk) 07:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My and Amakuru's statements are clear enough. Regardless of Netoholic's preferences, WP:NCTV does advise us to use special cases like "miniseries", "game show", etc. when it's clearer for the reader. In this case, "telenovela" is much clearer than "2002 TV series". "Telenovela" is a common and widely used disambiguator as can be seen by virtually any category: Category:2002 telenovelas, for example. The idea that perfectly reasonable comments should be "dismissed" is absurd.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:41, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I think I should clarify that in view of arguments from Amakuru and supported by Cuchullain above, and in the absence of input from the WikiProject, it now seems to me that La Venganza (2002 telenovela) does comply with the official guideline. Andrewa (talk) 07:29, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) is under the purview of Wikipedia:WikiProject Television, and I am participating in this discussion as a representative. I have no specific interest in this article, but rather only interested in maintaining a consistent naming convention. I have been associated with this naming convention since its inception, and have provided my input above in that capacity. Neither the current title nor the intended title comply with WP:NCTV, as I've stated above. This is a clear case. I implore any admin closing this discussion to weigh this input appropriately, as no single page should be exempt from an established guideline without making an extremely good case for it. No special case has been presented for this article. Those willing to change the guideline itself should do that on the appropriate talk page, not try to carve out this specific exception. -- Netoholic @ 05:06, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FYI. See User talk:Netoholic#Telenovela moves and Special:Log/Netoholic. In the last day, Netoholic has moved ~100 articles from "(telenovela)" disambiguation to "(TV series)" despite the clear lack of consensus for their opinion here. I've asked them to revert, but they have thus far refused. Jenks24 (talk) 09:13, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly this needs a more centralized discussion, as there is no clear consensus that "telenovela" should be deprecated in disambiguation. That could be an RfC at the guideline or project page, or perhaps a mass RM discussion to gauge wider consensus. In the meantime, Netoholic, please refrain from making any more moves of this type as it's clear that others challenge them.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.