Talk:Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen

The Soup Kitchen

I have completed my article draft ‘The Soup Kitchen’ and I am ready to submit it. As you can see the article deals with an organization for poor children founded by my father Elias Suraqui 80 years ago and which ceased its activities in 1964. Hundreds of documents mention the soup kitchen mainly originated from very reliable sources mainly from JDC archives but not only. I was extremely careful about the autobiographical risk and I refrained from mentioning my father's name. I have done that only on two occasions, at the very beginning to mention he was the SP founder, which is an unavoidable statement, and at the very end to say he got the ‘legion d’honneur’ from the French government on the basis of his humanitarian activities in Morocco. I have done that because the official French document mentions explicitly the Soup Kitchen creation and the corresponding source is highly trustworthy. I am sure that if somebody else not related to my family had written the same article, my father's name would have been mentioned many more times since it is quoted very often in the archives.

Most of the article's secondary sources are books, which mainly use the same primary sources JDC and AIU archives that I equally quote. Most of those books or articles praise the high quality of the above archives.  Furthermore, hundreds of Wikipedia articles refer to JDC archives .Please let me know your comments before the article submission. Danielsuraqui (talk) 09:25, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@Danielsuraqui: Per WP:THREE, please identify which of the references you've given provide the most in-depth, independent, reliable, published coverage about the organisation. Please exclude sources which are scanned documents in your possession and rely only on books, national newspaper coverage and articles in historic or academic journals. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Curb Safe Charmer,

The article relies mainly, but not only on the JDC archives. Those archives have a very good reputation of seriousness. They   are widely mentioned in many English Wikipedia articles and are broadly used in many books. One example is Michael Laskier in his book: ‘The Alliance Israélite Universelle and the Jewish Communities of Morocco’, referring to the JDC archives  says: ‘The archives of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) These archives contain vital datastatistics, program director's reports, budgets, correspondence with various Jewish and non-Jewish organizations, and with governmental and nongovernmental agencies on the activities of the JDC in Morocco since the end of the Second World War….These archives, which have only recently become available, are invaluable. The most relevant archival files contain the correspondence between the JDC offices in Morocco and its offices in Geneva.’

The JDC archives can be consulted at:

https://search.archives.jdc.org/search.asp?lang=ENG&dlang=ENG&module=search&page=criteria&rsvr=2&param=%3Cuppernav%3Ecomplex%3C/%3E&param2=&site=ideaalm

You can check by yourself that if you type keywords such as ‘soupe AND populaire’ or ‘suraqui’ you have more than 100 entries.

As an example:  Annual report 1958 Country Report Morocco, May 06 1959.

https://search.archives.jdc.org/multimedia/Documents/Geneva55-64/G55-64_CR/G55-64_CR_203/G55-64_CR_203_0108.pdf#search=

This is a 78 pages document the SP is mentioned twice p 42/78 and in a table at page 59/78.

The archives very often refer to the SP as soupe Suraqui. However, I was very careful to never use my father's name but rather SP (Soupe Populaire).

Besides JDC, AIU archives and newspapers that I refer in the article, there are at least two reliable sources, which explicitly mention the SP. Namely a

Journal article : Revue Internationale du Trachome 1957 Vol.34 No.2 pp.213-29

‘Résultats de trois années de traitement massif du trachome de la population indigène du Maroc dans le cadre de l'œuvre de secours aux enfants (O.S.E, Maroc)’ Author : Kony, Maria.

SP is mentioned twice at page 222 and 223 and

Document de la Grande Chancellerie de la Légion d’Honneur.  This is an official French government document.  SP is mentioned at the before last page document. You can authentify the document by writing at the following address:

Bureau des recherches généalogiques et des admissions des élèves

Ref : 0686 F5 2022 - SURAQUI - SURAQUI

Services des décorations

1 rue de Solférino, 75700 Paris 07SP

Tél. 01 40 62 84 00

recherchesgenealogiques.lh@legiondhonneur.fr

www.legiondhonneur.fr

As mentioned, I was very careful to avoid autobiographical references, I have mentioned my father's name only twice and I explained why. If you read the article in its integrity, you will see that I report the facts, I reported critics too and the style is factual and not apologetic. Let me know whether you need additional info. Danielsuraqui (talk) 17:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think this subject meets the WP:NORG or WP:GNG criteria. What you've listed above appears to be mentions of the organisation, not in depth coverage. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:18, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey Curb, let me look into this one a little bit. I think there is something here, but I'm going to go in and reformat the citations and see what I can do. I am a little uncomfortable with the conflict of interest issue here, but I'll look it over to see if sections read with a particular point of view. Bkissin (talk) 14:33, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi,

I would like to discuss the possibility of removing the upper banner on ‘neutral point of view’. From the very beginning, before submitting the article, I was aware and very careful of the autobiographical link and it is why I avoided quoting references mentioning my family name. Paradoxically, I believe a non-related author would have mentioned my father's name much more.

This article deals with a philanthropic organization created 80 years ago and which ceased its activities about 60 years ago; it  is based on highly reliable sources, mainly from JDC sources but not only. In the article, my father's name is mentioned only on two occasions, at the very beginning to mention he was the SP founder, which is an unavoidable statement, and at the very end to say he got the ‘legion d’honneur’ from the French government on the basis of his humanitarian activities in Morocco. I have done that because the official French document mentions explicitly the Soup Kitchen creation and the corresponding source is highly trustworthy. I reported critics too and the style is factual and not apologetic. Danielsuraqui (talk) 10:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Why the page move?

@Danielsuraqui: what was your rationale for renaming the article from La Soupe Populaire to Soup Kitchen (La Soupe Populaire de Casablanca)? Please read Wikipedia:Article titles. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:51, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi  Curb Safe Charmer,

There are two main reasons: this is an English article with almost the same name as the French counterpart. (‘Soupe Populaire pour enfants’).  It was important to mention the French name after the English one but not to suppress the former (for understanding reason); finally adding the word Casablanca is important because it specifies a given context.  

A right title is important, and this one is in my sense a good introduction to the article. ‘ La Soupe Populaire’  alone has no meaning for the reader even if he understands the title. He has no clues on what to expect: Soup Kitchen for refugees, old people, etc.  If you mention Casablanca or Calcutta, this changes the expectation.

I am aware that the title is slightly too long, this is why I have cut ‘pour enfants’. Please let me know. Thanks

DanielSuraqui Danielsuraqui (talk) 19:01, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 20 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: move to Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen. While it may serve to further discuss the other options, there is consensus that Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen is an improvement. I have redirected some of the other alternatives. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 02:04, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

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Soup Kitchen (La Soupe Populaire de Casablanca) → La Soupe Populaire de Casablanca – Seeking advice on the correct name for this article. It was originally La Soupe Populaire which is what I understood this particular soup kitchen to be called. I don't think the current name is an improvement. If we need to disambiguate this soup kitchen against any others, the added 'de Casablanca' seems to help. I don't think including the English words 'Soup Kitchen' at the start of the title is correct. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 19:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 03:56, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi  Curb Safe Charmer,

  Thanks a lot for agreeing to 'Casablanca' . This is an improvement in my mind. The only reason for which I suggest 'Soup Kitchen' is because it is an English name and I do not think that all readers will understand 'Soupe Populaire' ; they can misinterpret the meaning and I would not take this risk. Thanks

DanielSuraqui Danielsuraqui (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

• Move to Children's Soup Kitchen. Since there doesn't appear to be an overwhelming use of "Soupe populaire pour enfants" in English-language sources, we translate the title, per WP:UE. 162 etc. (talk) 04:00, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  O.k but I propose Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen or Children's Soup Kitchen from Casablanca let me know. Thx Danielsuraqui (talk) 10:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen Children's Soup Kitchen of Casablanca (not 'from') Danielsuraqui (talk) 16:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  No objection to Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen. 162 etc. (talk) 18:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Just to clarify the move history so far: draft creator (who has declared a COI at #The Soup Kitchen above) performed an undiscussed move from La Soupe Populaire to Soup Kitchen (La Soupe Populaire de Casablanca). RM nom contested it (#Why the page move?) and without reverting the undiscussed move, opened this RM. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 18:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC) [Fixed typo 03:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)]

  I do not understand , it was not an undiscussed move, I have changed the title after Curb Safe Charmer wrote 'No objection to Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen. 162 etc. (talk) 18:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)? Could you please put back the above and agreed title. Thanks Danielsuraqui (talk) 09:31, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, Danielsuraqui. The article had to be moved back because this move request is still open and usually stays open for at least seven days. That gives editors time to read and give their opinions. A move request is an official survey and discussion, so an article should not be renamed until a decision and a closing statement have been made. Here is an example of an officially closed request. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 12:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

After  the closing statement made, who will possibly modify the title? Thanks Danielsuraqui (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The person who closes the discussion. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:06, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

As I have mentioned the title suggested by 162 etc. : Casablanca Children’s Soup Kitchen seems to me matching the article content. First, it is an English title, while the French counterpart could lead to misinterpretations. Next, each of the four words composing the title has an importance, because each of them specify an important context and the reader is better informed on what he can expect of the article. I hope this title will be adopted, let me know. Danielsuraqui (talk) 14:24, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

@Danielsuraqui: just to be clear, the comment "No objection to Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen" was made by an editor by the name of "162 etc." - I expect you were confused by their user name. They are not me. The reason I started a move discussion is that there are a range of possible titles for this article and it is better to have a discussion and achieve consensus on the best one rather than having a series of people move the article to the one they think best. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:19, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

• Move but not all that concerned where it ends up. La Soupe Populaire de Casablanca, Children's Soup Kitchen and Casablanca Children's Soup Kitchen are all acceptable, the first seems the most common in English looking at some of the article references (we do not therefore need to translate). We should have redirects from the others whichever way we go. Or there may be other possibilities. But the current title is no good at all. Andrewa (talk) 01:48, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removing upper banner

Hi,

I would like to discuss the possibility of removing the upper banner on ‘neutral point of view’. From the very beginning, before submitting the article, I was aware and very careful of the autobiographical link and it is why I avoided quoting references mentioning my family name. Paradoxically, I believe a non-related author would have mentioned my father's name much more.

This article deals with a philanthropic organization created 80 years ago and which ceased its activities about 60 years ago; it  is based on highly reliable sources, mainly from JDC sources but not only. In the article, my father's name is mentioned only on two occasions, at the very beginning to mention he was the SP founder, which is an unavoidable statement, and at the very end to say he got the ‘legion d’honneur’ from the French government on the basis of his humanitarian activities in Morocco. I have done that because the official French document mentions explicitly the Soup Kitchen creation and the corresponding source is highly trustworthy. I reported critics too and the style is factual and not apologetic.

Danielsuraqui (talk) 12:10, 25 November 2022 (UTC)