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LaTasha Barnes article

[edit]

Hello Readers, It would be helpful to me to know specifically what language within the article appears "promotional" in tone or content, so that I can change it. Also, there was a comment about references, and I'd like to better understand the specific instances where they are a problem. I understand the rules about the types of references to use. However, in a few cases, the only evidence that a specific performance or award existed was based on a videotape or website, which is why they were included. Is it necessary to omit these mentions? Thanks very much for your assistance, Wendy Wroliver (talk) 21:49, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Wroliver
On the {{promotional tone}} tag: There are a lot of small subpar bits of writing that combine to give the impression the article is slanted towards Barnes. Examples include:
  1. The second sentence of the lead section ends with ...draws a direct line from the swing era to the present day, which is the kind of cliche the Wikipedia Manual of Style discourages.
  2. In the section "Cultural ambassador and Educator": Barnes herself became part of Herrang's faculty in the 2020s, indicating a high level of recognition within the swing dance community. According to whom? Wikipedia isn't supposed to contain unsourced conjecture like this; see our no original research policy.
  3. The Jazz Continuum subjection is made up almost entirely of quotations from critics and Barnes herself. Quotation is fine in a vacuum, and preferable for communicating a critic's subjective assesments, but it needs to be counterbalanced with writing about objective facts that paraphrases from the cited sources.
If I come off as pedantic, I'm sorry, but do note that the tag isn't a big deal; there is no deadline for completing anything on Wikipedia, and the encyclopedia is better with the flawed article that exists now than it was when there was no article on Barnes. Cheers, Mach61 17:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for these specifics, Mach61. I will work on these 3 areas. Wroliver (talk) 18:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wroliver Please restore the quotes that were between <ref></ref> tags; these do not appear as content in the visible article but help readers looking at the footnotes. They aren't what I was complaining about. Mach61 19:07, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello,
Another reviewer told me to take those quotations out! I was tagged for problems with references and that's what they thought the problem was. Please advise. I agree that the quotations are helpful for readers, but notice that other articles such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Ailey and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twyla_Tharp and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_de_Lavallade do not include any references. Perhaps there is some other issue with my references? I did make all the formatting corrections suggested. before submitting the article.
Thanks, Wroliver (talk) 19:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

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  • ... that one of the most popular places to learn swing dance and lindy hop is in Malmo, Sweden?
    • Reviewed:
Created by Wroliver (talk).


Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Wroliver (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]

  • Hi Wroliver, the article says onyl that the "Herrang Dance Camp is one of the most popular places in Europe to learn swing dance and Lindy Hop" and is sourced to its Wikipedia article. This wouldn't be acceptable and would need an independent source. Additionally it doesn't seem to have much to do with the subject of the article LaTasha Barnes, a hook focussing on her would be preferred. Finally, the article has been tagged for promotional tone and unclear citations that needs resolving before it can be posted - Dumelow (talk) 09:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Wroliver, just a reminder on this. If I don't hear back in the next couple of days I will close the nomination as unsuccessful. All the best - Dumelow (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd propose ALT1: ... that jazz dancer LaTasha Barnes used to be a sergeant in the U.S. Army? Sdkb talk 05:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Marking for closure as article continues to have significant citation issues. It has also been tagged for promotional content - Dumelow (talk) 08:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wroliver has requested to keep this open for another day or so. There is significant work to be done here to address the tags on the article though - Dumelow (talk) 22:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alt DYK proposed for LaTasha Barnes article: DYK that dancer/choreographer LaTasha Barnes began her career as a sergeant in the U.S. Army? [1]

Note: I have made some revisions to the article to address concerns mentioned, including removing the Wikipedia reference and replacing it with a better reference. I've attempted to keep a neutral tone throughout, and changed some of the language for that purpose. Please let me know if any other changes are needed.Wroliver (talk) 21:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTasha_Barnes[reply]

Hi Wroliver, thanks for getting back to me. I have been through "Early years" and "Performing career" and noted a few bits that are not supported by the sources cited. Can you look to resolve these and any other similar parts of the article before I continue the review - Dumelow (talk) 10:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've also tagged a sentence copied verbatim from the cited source. Please address this and also any other similar instances, we cannot violate copyright in this way - Dumelow (talk) 10:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Wroliver, further to your message on my talk page I have looked at the next section "Cultural Ambassador and Educator". Again it is full of statements not supported by the source cited or where better sources are needed. Can you please address these and look at the remaining two sections to check for similar issues. It is very frustrating to have to go through this article line by line. It is basic policy here that anything stated in the article should be supported by the source - Dumelow (talk) 08:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wroliver: Please respond to the above. Z1720 (talk) 14:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see my comments have been addressed for the "Cultural Ambassador and Educator". Can you please confirm you have checked the final two sections of the article for similar issues (including that everything stated is backed up by the source cited) ; it is very frustrating to go through it line by line to find the same issue repeated - Dumelow (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Wroliver:, further to your message on my talk page saying you have checked the last two paragraphs I have started to take a look. The first sentence I checked was "All of her experiences as a performer as well as her academic work for her thesis have served as important precursors to her current show, The Jazz Continuum, an "ongoing project to close the gap between contemporary Black dances and their predecessors."" This includes some specific claims and a direct quote, but nothing to support it appears in the source cited which is just a list of the "top 5" shows on the stage at a given time. It is fairly basic stuff to make sure that everything stated in the article is supported by the work cited. I am not going to waste time checking the rest of the article. Please carefully review it and check that everything is supported properly - Dumelow (talk) 11:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wroliver:, scratch that. It was a error with the url in the ref cited that was redirecting it to a different article. I'll look over it now - Dumelow (talk) 11:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wroliver:. I've flagged a citation needed for her bachelors degrees, for her 2021 Bessie award and a better source needed for the stuff cited to Broadway World (which is listed at WP:RSP as "generally unreliable"). Other than that should be OK - Dumelow (talk) 12:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wroliver: has made changes to the sources and ALT1 should be good to go. I don't have an NYT subscription so AGF on sourcing, I amended the hook slightly to say "used to be a sergeant" rather than "began her career as a sergeant" as that could be interpreted as her having skipped the more junior ranks - Dumelow (talk) 16:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Wroliver, I'm going to respond here so that the discussion remains centralized. I have concern that some of the language is a bit overly promotional, such as "Barnes began a collaboration with Caleb Teicher & Friends, which eventually resulted in the 2021 show "Swing Out," currently touring the U.S." (cited to a primary source), "While Barnes continues to perform with many different people in a variety of venues, she is also an educator who explains the key role of African Americans in developing African diasporic dance forms including hip hop, swing dance, and jazz dance." and "Barnes has taken on some of the responsibility for keeping the history of vernacular Black dance forms alive," (phrasing is fluffy, rather promotional). The tone overall seems very informal, rather than the formal tone preferred for Wikipedia.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Chris, I believe that I've fixed the problems you noted yesterday, but let me know if not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTasha_Barnes Thanks very much, Wroliver (talk) 16:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dear AirshipJungleman29, I would appreciate knowing more about this DYK process, since this is my first time doing an article and doing DYK. How many folks need to give approval to the article before it moves ahead? I've already made changes requested by 2 people. It would help me make a decision about whether to keep working on this or not to know how many more times I will need to respond to feedback. Thanks very much, 192.65.213.200 (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming that this is Wroliver editing while logged-out, every nomination needs at least two approvals from the nominator and promoter; if a nomination has problems, more approvals might be needed. In this case, Dumelow was the reviewer, then Chris came along to promote this but found problems, and then I came along to promote it but found problems. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. I have a question: is it considered "promotional" when I present positive statements by dance reviewers? It is their job to give an opinion, and also describe the nature of a dance or performance. I'd like to be able to convey their ideas in the article if possible, since these types of reviews are the part of the evidence that artists deserve the awards and honors that they have received. In addition, these descriptions give readers an idea of what the work looks like, which is an important element in learning about different dance companies, choreographers, and styles. Thanks, Wroliver (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In short, concise descriptions or quotations are okay, but lengthy effusive quotations are not, and are potentially a copyright violation as well. The Parker and Burke paragraphs in "The Jazz Continuum" are especially problematic. This is not a DYK criterion, but a Wikipedia policy—that of neutrality. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ([[UseOK, thanks for the clarification. I will work on it today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wroliver (talk • contribs) 18:54, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

r talk:AirshipJungleman29|talk]]) 13:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC) Hello AirshipJungleman29, I hope I've addressed all your concerns within the article. I've removed some quotations and shortened others, and tried to keep everything neutral. Please let me know if there are any further changes needed. Thanks, Wroliver (talk) 02:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTasha_Barnes Hello Dumelow, Thanks for the feedback. I will re-think the hook. Also, you noted the other tags for promotional tone and unclear citations. Could you please give me a specific instance of a place where the citations are unclear? I'm having trouble finding the problem. Thanks, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wroliver (talk • contribs) 19:27, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Siebert, Brian. "From the Lindy Hop to Hip-Hop in One Improvising Body". New York Times. New York Times. Retrieved 2022-11-16.
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