Talk:LD&ECR Class A

Proposed move

Elsewhere than on these two pages, "LD&EC class A" aand "LD&EC class D", the standard abbreviation for this operator appears to be "LD&ECR". Attention has been brought to this by the inclusion of both abbrs. "LD&EC" and "LD&ECR" within the text on one page.

As it is a good idea to standardise the abbr., which I am undertaking whilst researching some of these pages, it would make sense to modify the titles of the two relevant pages to "LD&ECR class A" and "LD&ECR class D".

Before I do this, which would trigger a need to "move" the pages, I ask if there is any objection to this change.

Weezerd (talk) 15:17, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I would possibly support this, subject to some reasonable sourcing that LD&ECR is at least locally favoured over LD&EC. Certainly the "R" suffix is common in the UK, but if the LMS managed to avoid it in general use, then we shouldn't assume too much about this. Does anyone know why these articles started out omitting it? Is there any sourcing to support this? The LD&EC(R) is pretty obscure, so it could be either way. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Railway company initials (other than those on wagons, which were agreed with the Railway Clearing House) were not standardised, and did vary with time. Even the LMS began its days unsure whether to use "LM&SR", "LM&S" or "LMS". The Great Western used both "GWR" and "GW". There is a book:

• Carter, Ernest F. (1980) [1952]. Britain's Railway Liveries 1825-1948 (3rd ed.). London: Harold Starke. ISBN 0 287 66989 0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

which doesn't present a continuous picture, but gives snapshots at various dates. In the section "Lancashire, Derbyshire and East Coast Railway" we find '1897 ... the initial letters "L.D. & E.C.R." were on the tank sides in gold shaded blue' (Carter 1980, p. 230) and '1898 ... "L.D. & E.C.R." appeared on the tank sides in gold, shaded blue' (Carter 1980, p. 231) --Redrose64 (talk) 21:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

On the website http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/GreatCentral/LDECR.html John Speller's Web Pages - Great Central Railway, there is a photo of 0-6-2Tank no. 26 pulling the Royal Train on 10 Sep 1906, showing the livery, lined, with "L D & E C R" on the side tank.

The book "The Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast Railway" by J. Cupit & W. Taylor published by The Oakwood Press has a cover photo of an 0-6-2T in the unlined livery of the Railway Co and in this photo can be clearly seen the motif "L D & E C R" on the side tank. Weezerd (talk) 14:47, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep, got it. Mine is the second edition:

• Cupit, J.; Taylor, W. (1984) [1966]. The Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast Railway. Oakwood Library of Railway History (2nd ed.). Headington: Oakwood Press. ISBN 0 85361 302 8. OL19.

The photos in the centre pages clearly show the "L D & E C R" form on locos but also a ticket marked "L. D. & E. C. RY.". Now we come to a possible origin of the form lacking the "R":

• Dow, George (1965). Great Central, Volume Three: Fay Sets the Pace, 1900-1922. Shepperton: Ian Allan. ISBN 0 7110 0263 0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

In the chapter "Neither Lancashire nor East Coast", Dow consistently uses the form "LD&EC" in text (Dow 1965, pp. 153–185), but also notes that locomotives were lettered "LD&ECR", coaches "LD&EC" (Dow 1965, p. 181) and wagons "LDEC" (Dow 1965, p. 182). --Redrose64 (talk) 17:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

 Done, but with capital C, i.e. LD&ECR Class A and LD&ECR Class D, for consistency with other British loco classes. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)