Talk:Kron Gracie

Nickname / Wikiproject MMA infobox

Moved from User talk:Lewolka § Wikiproject MMA infobox

 – Sharing the discussion with fellow editors. Lewolka (talk) 13:08, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Lewolka. I have removed the nickname from the infobox of Kron Gracie, as the MMA Project infobox contains the nickname only as sourced to Sherdog. This is to prevent there being a whole load of meme-based nicknames and is the result of longstanding consensus. I have however not removed the section in the article about the nickname, but it doesn't qualify for the infobox. The parameters for the MMA infobox are set down by Wikiproject MMA. Thanks.NEDOCHAN (talk) 14:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi @NEDOCHAN I wasn't aware of Sherdog being the only source accepted for adding a nickname to the infobox template that the Kron Gracie article is using, I'm also not sure what you mean by MMA and/or MMA Project infobox, as far as I know per WP:MMA/MOS MMA fighters use the Template:Infobox martial artist and I cannot find a mention of that requirement. If this is from a discussion with a consensus reached on the WikiProject Mixed martial arts TP, could you please send me a link to it?. Thanks. Lewolka (talk) 13:19, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

First off - thanks for starting a discussion. The consensus only to use the nickname as sourced to Sherdog has been built over many discussions and many years. Examples of such discussions, off the top of my head, can be found in the TP history of Conor McGregor, Henry Cejudo, Paddy Pimblett and many others. @Cassiopeia might also be able to help if they have time. There are occasions on which Sherdog can be usurped by ESPN, which is a green RS, as decided here. ESPN also lists fighter nicknames, but it does not give 'Ice Cream Kron' for K Gracie. The section is for the official fighter nickname, which is normally what the announcer says when introducing. This doesn't apply to Kron Gracie. If the infobox contained all examples of nicknames, it would turn into a free for all and include all the silly nicknames that come and go. There is nothing wrong with putting sourced info in the article but the infobox is not compulsory. Much in the same way as finding a source that described a fighter's style would not qualify for the WP:MMASTYLE infobox parameter, but could be included in the article body. Hope that makes sense and thanks again for discussing. NEDOCHAN (talk) 13:56, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation, reading some of the TP you mention I can see that you have been involved with the topic for much longer than I have (and I’m more focus on BJJ) but it would be helpful to have all those parameters added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts so it’s a bit clearer for new editors, at least with links to those consensus... I could not find any just lots of discussions. I totally understand your point about avoiding a list of goofy nicknames, and I'm 100% behind that, but I still feel that Kron Gracie deserves it in the infobox, it is a nickname that was attached to him before his MMA career and the infobox is not specific to MMA. He was known by that name before 2014 as you can see in that 2012 BJEE "Ice cream Kron Gracie following his submission win over Otavio Sousa at Metamoris 2012" , the nickname can also be found recently on both ESPN Brazil "'Ice Cream Kron' faces the experienced Cub Swanson this Saturday for the UFC Tampa co-main event" and Sherdog: "“Ice Cream Kron” will face Alex Caceres in his debut Ultimate Fighting Championship bout this weekend at UFC on ESPN 1". His nickname is everywhere, it's on the wall of his academy and the name of the website where he sells gear. Before MMA he won 2013 ADCC, 2009 IBJJF European, silver at Worlds and was already a multiple world champion in coloured belt so he passes Wikipedia:Notability (sports). Since his MMA career is not what defines him and the infobox is not specific to MMA (except the record part) I think that his nickname should be there. Lewolka (talk) 21:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Lewolka and NEDOCHAN: Good day Lewolka. Here I add on what NEDOCHAN already explained above. Normally, if a second nick name is so well-known, it will show up fighter page at Sherdog - example Robert Whittaker (The Reaper / Bobby Knuckles)- see [ https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Robert-Whittaker-45132 here-RW] and Cory McKenna (Poppins / The Hobbit) - see here-CMc. Some pioneer MMA fighters who fought at Rizin or Pride had many come and go nicknames same as those modern MMA fighters who got some internet meme nickname that we dont include in the infobox. If the nickname appear time and time again thought out the fighter career (many independent, reliable source), we can include in the infobox with the support of the sources. The sources you provided bjjee - is a video interview and it is considered not an independent source; https://www.icecreamkron.com/ is the subject webpage and it is considered not independent and reliable and https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/width960/24035033_PSi9AHx3CJkV2ch0E1N3wLMr0KaxHQhTMGaJjwFT0kA.jpg is just an image which the source is considered not reliable. Thus only 2 sources would not considered enough to add the nick name in the infobox unless you can provide more independent, reliable sources. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 23:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Cassiopeia and thank you for joining us the conversation. The sources I provided were just to show that he was already known by that nickname prior to his MMA career 10 years ago, and that the fact that he uses that nickname for his academy shows that it was far from the internet meme nickname of the moment, I did not intend to use those in the article sorry if this wasn't clear. Here is this 2013 story in Italian Vogue, a major publication, shot by Bruce Weber (same guy who took those famous images of Rickson) under the title : “Ice Cream Kron” that was also before his MMA career. BJJheroes which is used as RS for most BJJ athletes articles lists it in his profile so does Jiu-Jitsu Times in 2015In A profile that Vice wrote about him in 2016 at the start of his MMA career, a 2017 profile in At Large, another major publication, a 2018 article in BJJ Scandinavia. Finally the nickname can still be found more recently as seen in this 2019 article on Flo Grappling and those 2019 articles from ESPN and Sherdog sourced in my previous post. So my point is that he was already notable as a BJJ athlete before MMA and the nickname has definitely appeared time and time again thought out his fighter career. Thanks for reading! Lewolka (talk) 08:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Lewolka: OK, you can add the nickname on the infobox with citations of the sources above except the Vougue as nickname is lost in translation from Italian to English. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 09:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok cool will work on adding that. @NEDOCHAN do you also support? Lewolka (talk) 12:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

My own view is that this nickname's absence from the best sources, such as Sherdog and ESPN, makes its inclusion in the infobox unsuitable.NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:25, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN ok will hold on before adding it to infobox until we reach a consensus, Sherdog and ESPN have used his nickname in articles just not in his bio, he already had a great BJJ career before transitioning to MMA so the Sherdog and ESPN requirement (that I only have your word for) is not essential here... as explained in my previous post he's been known by that nickname consistently for at least 10 years, I have provided links to multiple RS. In the meantime will expand the BJJ part of his career as it's missing some important achievements. Lewolka (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Lewolka. Just to say I removed the color boxes, which we don't use in any MMA fighter articles.NEDOCHAN (talk) 16:10, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN Just like the previous conversation I accept this in good faith but it is hard to go with the “we don’t use” argument, I could not find any mention of this on WP:MMA/MOS. Could you please provide links to the appropriate MOS:INFOBOX requirements on Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts or at least point to a related TP conversation that ended with a consensus?  Also like I have shown before Kron Gracie is not only notable for MMA so I am not sure it necessarily applies here. A number of BJJ athletes use it such as Leticia Ribeiro, Lucas Lepri, Alexandre Ribeiro, Samuel Braga, Bruno Malfacine, Mikey Musumeci, Guilherme Mendes or Bernardo Faria. Thanks for reading! Lewolka (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Again, I appreciate that. The no color box consensus has been around for a while, and you'll notice that MMA fighter pages don't have them. I can't remember when or where the consensus formed so will once again ping @Cassiopeia: .NEDOCHAN (talk) 21:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

No color box in MMA fighter infobox. Cassiopeia talk 23:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Lewolka raises a fair point that that's hard for editors to know.NEDOCHAN (talk) 00:08, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

MMA fighters page vs grapplers page. We dont have Grappers Wiki project but we do have MMA Wiki project. Cassiopeia talk 00:21, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Greetings @Cassiopeia. Apologies for bringing this back but, moving aside the fact that the Kron Gracie's article may fall within the scopes of another project, neither of you has answered my questions regarding guidelines / Infobox MOS. There is nothing about nicknames or colour boxes on the WP:MMA or WP:MOS and I cannot find the discussions @NEDOCHAN mentioned. I am only asking as a newcomer willing to learn as BJJ and MMA articles often intertwine. Can you please share the origin of those guidelines? Thank you again and have a great day! Lewolka (talk) 13:05, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Lewolka I remember reading the mma talk page and show the info but I could not find it now as they are so many years of discussion thread. We always go buy the normal/default setting. Also since even without colour box, the info of the ranks are always spell out as always. Cassiopeia talk 00:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@Cassiopeia thank you for getting back unfortunately if those guidelines cannot be verified there is no way to enforce them. I will add the colour boxes back, not because of the lack of WP:MMA WP:MOS guidelines but because, as I have demonstrated previously and as illustrated by the BJJ section of the article, Kron Gracie was notable as a BJJ athlete well before his 6 MMA fights. If this is a problem and if you think an WP:RfC would be helpful here I am okay with that, since it could help with future discussions on the same topic. Thanks Lewolka (talk) 09:37, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi Lewolka. Color boxes are not compulsory. There is wide CONSENSUS not to use them, as is indicated by their absence from MMA fighter pages across Wikipedia. There is also narrow CONSENSUS here on the talk page not to use them. NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:38, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary, but if you would like to start an RfC, you can. Until then, I have restored the STATUSQUO / stable version.NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:42, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Very well It’s a shame the three of us could not agree but if this can help future editors I’ll start the process. Lewolka (talk) 10:14, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

For the sake of consistency, it'll be an uphill struggle to suggest adding unnecessary color boxes to every MMA Infobox on Wikipedia. I can't for the life of me see what difference they make and it'd be a monumental task for something that is neither compulsory nor makes any practical difference. Anyway...it's your time. NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@NEDOCHAN, no one is suggesting adding colour boxes to the infobox of every MMA fighter on Wikipedia, the question is about Kron Gracie whose notability is not uniquely MMA hence the RfC. Lewolka (talk) 11:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I understand that, but as a fighter signed to a major promotion, he has an MMA Infobox, in which there are no colour boxes across Wikipedia (broadly). I also doubt he would pass NOTABILITY guidelines were it not for his MMA profile.NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect may I suggest you read the article? in addition of being an ADCC grappling champion and an IBJJF European champion, he has fought world championship and Pan championship black belt finals, these are three most prestigious Brazilian jiu-jitsu competitions in the world. He was a two-time world champion by the age of 19. He would definitely pass Wikipedia:Notability (sports) and it is the infobox martial artist not just MMA.Lewolka (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Citations needed template in infobox

Please refrain from adding citations needed template in the infobox. Citations are not necessary in infoboxes if the content is already cited in the body of the article per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes and Wikipedia:INFOBOXCITE In this case all the championship results are sourced, sometimes more than once, within the article, same thing for trainers, teams and divisions. Please reply here if questions. Thank you. Lewolka (talk) 13:50, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment on adding a colour box next to his rank to indicate belt colour in the sport

Can martial artist Kron Gracie’s Infobox contains a colour box next to his rank to indicate belt colour?. diff Thanks! (RfC ended and restarted) Lewolka (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2022 (UTC); Lewolka (talk) 15:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC); Lewolka (talk) 10:19, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: The proposed color icons can be viewed in the infobox in this diff, in the RANK entry.

Option 1: No there is wide consensus not to use them for MMA fighter
Option 2: Yes it’s a quick way to to indicate belt colour in a sport and he's notable for more than his MMA career

Survey

• Option 1 They don't add anything or make any practical difference and the effort required to add them to every MMA fighter infobox would be vast and result in nothing useful and a lot of clutter.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:45, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
• Option 1 Per above, IMO this doesn’t need an RfC. | Zippybonzo | Talk | 13:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

  Maybe the previous conversation on this TP can help understand why an RfC was requested, thank you. Lewolka (talk) 19:40, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2 Yes, Color box add a convenient way to evaluate a rank in a sport; they are used by martial artists such as Saulo Ribeiro, Ricardo Almeida or Vítor Ribeiro for Brazilian jiu-jitsu or Kayla Harrison for Judo, all of them have MMA records but are also notable in another combat sport, just like Kron Gracie. No one wants to add them to every MMA fighter infobox (see previous TP conversation). This is about a martial artist who is also notable for his merits in another combat sport: Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Color boxes are used in numerous Brazilian jiu-jitsu articles such as Carlos Gracie and Hélio Gracie, the founders of the sport, 7th degree black belts Royler Gracie, Carlos "Caique" Elias and Júlio 'Foca' Fernandez;  8th degree Carlos Gracie Jr., Rigan Machado and Carlos Machado or 9th & 10th degrees Rorion Gracie, Relson Gracie and Carlson Gracie. To follow consistency between infobox we should be able to use them in this article too. Thank you for reading 06:14, 8 July 2022 (UTC); edited Lewolka (talk) 19:03, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

  Lewolka thanks for the handy list of articles to be cleaned up. They are all in violation of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Icons. Alsee (talk) 18:33, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  You’re very welcome, you might have a bit of work as a lot of martial artist biographies use them not just BJJ you will also find them for example in Judo, however the colour boxes are there to serve an encyclopedic purpose so this is not a “violation” of the MOS and they do not need to be removed. Lewolka (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• Option 2, I don't see the harm here. The colour box just a very small black box next to black box and is informative to readers. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 08:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
• Option 2. Certainly seems relevant to me in this context. Also I don’t follow the argument that it would be too much work to do this for all MMA fighters. This is not applicable to all such fighters. And adding this information to other pages doesn’t need to be done immediately or even rapidly. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 10:21, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  I now agree with Alsee's suggestion (below) to withdraw the RFC and recommend collaboration on an RFC at WT:Manual_of_Style/Icons, to resolve this more broadly. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

• Option 1, exclude color icon from infobox. Per guideline MOS:APPROPRIATEICONS, such icons may be appropriate in a table assist readers to skim and group people in the various the categories. In the infobox they are they are a non-functional and redundant distraction, per MOS:ICONDECORATION. In fact I found the black boxes unexpected and confusing when I looked at the old page revision, and I already knew they were going to be there. Alsee (talk) 11:39, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  In this case the colour box serves a purpose, it quickly and clearly indicates the belt colour of the martial artist, an essential information, it also improves comprehension of the article subject without cluttering the infobox. Example here where the belt colour is indicated without the need to write: "8th Degree Red and White Coral Belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu”. Lewolka (talk) 15:51, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  Lewolka it serves no purpose whatsoever. The text states "Black belt", making the black box redundant at best, and if you haven't read the "Black belt" text then the blank-black icons are unidentified are confusing. Since you don't appear to have read the Wikipedia Guideline links, I'll copy-paste: Appropriate use: Icons may be helpful in certain situations: Repeated use of an icon in a table. This should only be done if the icon has been used previously with an explanation of its purpose. They are useful in articles about international sporting events, to show the representative nationality of players. Inappropriate use: ...An icon is purely decorative if it does not improve comprehension of the article subject and serves no navigational function. Alsee (talk) 18:28, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  You might want to check out Brazilian jiu-jitsu ranking system and Rank in Judo to understand how ranking works in martial art, Gracie is probably a third dan if I’m not mistaken, BJJ has 10 while Judo has 12, so there is more than black. The boxes are not decorative but there to provide useful information on the article subject. Lewolka (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Alsee A friendly reminder to not edit your comment when an editor has already replied per WP:REDACTED thank you. Lewolka (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Lewolka there was no reply when I was editing my comment, with both of us saving almost simultaneously. However I do of course acknowledge the reasonable concern, and apologize if I caused any confusion. Alsee (talk) 07:59, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  No worries these things happen, have a great day! Lewolka (talk) 12:45, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I see articles in Category:Brazilian jiu-jitsu practitioners randomly do or do not include these icons in the infobox. I'm not going to remove them while this RFC is underway. However if this closes in favor of removal against inclusion ^{(edited, status quo is no icon)} I would appreciate it if the closer, or anyone else, pinged me. Alsee (talk) 18:28, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Alsee please look at Category:World_judo_champions, a good number of Olympic athletes' infoboxes use them, articles such as Hifumi Abe, Uta Abe, An Ba-ul, An Chang-rim and Teddy Riner which is also a Wikipedia:Good articles so they must serve a purpose. Jiu Jitsu and Judo share a lot of similitudes including the belt system. it would make sense to use them here for the same purpose. Lewolka (talk) 21:40, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  Lewolka this would be far from the first time that a tiny number of people, usually unaware of consensus&guidelines on icon use, made icon edits contrary to consensus&guidelines across a related cluster of articles. In fact I'm pretty sure most of those cases involve articles on a particular sport, and it usually involves excessive use of flag icons. That's why flag issues have bloated up two thirds of MOS:ICON. Alsee (talk) 22:19, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Alsee You are absolutely right, flags icons are a problem but scripts exist to remove them so the consensus is clear; colour boxes to indicate a martial artist's rank are different.

  Template:Infobox sportsperson (used on 104,000 pages) recommend their use, parameter for rank:

  The rank of the subject in their sport. Use   to indicate belt colour for martial artists.

  In the case of judokas there are added by the template, not by a tiny number of editors, this clearly shows that a consensus on the subject must have been reached in the past (and their purpose demonstrated) to include them in the parameters of the template.

  Template:Infobox judoka has the following parameter for rank:

  The rank (belt color) of the subject in judo. Use only the name of the color (Brown, Blue, etc.). a Description and a color box will be added by the template. Automated when dan is used.

  Template:Infobox martial artist does not say anything about colour boxes and the previous conversation failed to show the existence of a talk with a consensus on the subject, a martial artist such as a BJJ athlete should be able to display her/his rank just like judokas and other sportspersons do (as long as she/he is notable in that sport to loop back to how this conversation started) Thank you for reading! Lewolka (talk) 09:49, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

  That is interesting. It turns out the mention in {{Infobox sportsperson}} was created at almost the exact same time MOS:ICON became a guideline, probably with no cross-knowledge. I have been unable to find any discussion anywhere supporting or opposing the addition or use of belt color box icons in any of these infoboxes.

  I would like to make a proposal. Obtaining a consensus on this individual article, regardless of outcome, isn't particularly constructive. We could instead seek agreement of at least 3 or 4 people here to withdraw this RFC, and we could collaborate on an RFC to establish that belt color box should be added, or removed, across relevant infoboxes. The most appropriate place would be WT:Manual_of_Style/Icons, with links posted to relevant wikiprojects. It would also resolve the situation that happened here, where editors focused on BJJ and MMA appear to have different expectations, with an inevitable collision where they intersect. Does that sound good to you? Alsee (talk) 11:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

  That sounds like a brilliant idea. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 13:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Alsee yes that's fine with me thank you, looking forward to move on. Lewolka (talk) 20:35, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Lewolka sorry for the delay. So much distraction both on and off wiki. I'm too tired to think right now but I can draft something up for consideration if there's no hurry. Or I'm happy to look at what anyone else comes up with, if you or anyone wants to take the lead. Alsee (talk) 10:05, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

  No worries thanks for the update, I am in no rush to restart the topic at the moment so anybody else who wants to carry on is of course welcome. In the meantime will close this RfC Lewolka (talk) 08:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment. Appreciate that consensus appears to have been reached to have a wider discussion but I couldn’t see that raised yet, so I’ll add here: are there some reliable BJJ or MMA sources which use color iconography for this purpose, from which we could derive best practice? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Barnards.tar.gz As indicated in the previous comment Template:Infobox judoka adds a colour box to indicate belt colour and rank. BJJ and Judo are related since they both come from Jujutsu, they follow a similar ranking system in their belt colours with black-belt ranks called degrees, or "dan". MMA is not a martial art but a combat sport so unless the fighter is notable in one of the martial art used (like Kron Gracie here) this does not concerns MMA. Lewolka (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  I get how it's been done here and the motivation for doing it. What I was looking for was some examples in reliable sources. Are there some sources which use color icons in this way? Is this a normal thing to see on websites with bio information about BJJ practitioners? Are there very specific colors we should be using (e.g. what specific shade of purple?) How do they address accessibility (alt text naming the color?)? Should the color icons provide any additional functionality like being a link to an explanation of the colors? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  If you have the patience to go through it, there are lots of example of articles using them on this TP, as far as external websites I do not know. Regarding design, hexadecimal color code..etc it’s a good question but we haven’t gotten this far. Lewolka (talk) 19:06, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: To summarise before this RfC is closed, I would like to point out that recommendations for the use of colour boxes in martial artists infobox were found (in two templates parameters: Template:Infobox sportsperson and Template:Infobox judoka) and that consensus against their use in past discussions could not be found; however editors have agreed to restart/continue the discussion at WT:Manual_of_Style/Icons in order to establish a proper consensus&guidelines for or against their use. Lewolka (talk) 09:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

  Sounds good. To me, a lot turns on whether a given person is notable for their martial arts (in addition to their being notable otherwise, i.e. for MMA). That notability should / must be noted on the page. If so, a colour box indicating martial art rank seems merited- at least, that's how I see it. Qflib, aka KeeYou Flib (talk) 13:21, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Icons#RfC Can notable Brazilian jiu-jitsu people display a rank icon in their infobox like Judo people do?

@Qflib: @Alsee: @Barnards.tar.gz: Please comment at the subject RfC. Lewolka (talk) 15:28, 1 March 2023 (UTC)