Talk:Kraken Regiment

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Military history: European

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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

What is the point of quoting this?

One user believes that this quote should be kept: "In late September, it was reported that Nemichev claimed the unit had captured more than 15 Russian officers, handing them over to the Main Intelligence Directorate. He was quoted saying “All of them were thrown into the infantry. Therefore, it is indicative that Russians have big problems now. They do not know where to get people to send to death. Therefore, they gather them in different units and deploy them here. So they’re not doing well as it is, and then we come along and ‘spoil the mood’ some more.”".

While the first part is important information, what is the point of quoting what the Kraken unit thinks of Russian troops? This part should be removed, it makes no sense in the article. Mhorg (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The same question "the regiment Kraken was active in the same area". Xx236 (talk) 07:59, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One fits the desired narrative, the other does not. TylerBurden (talk) 16:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged Kraken War Crimes

There are active investigations into Kraken by the Ukrainian Government primarily for a few well known instances and videos of blatant war crimes, these include rounding up civilians for arrest in previously Russian held areas, executing civilians, and executing Russian POWs, as well as disappearances. any war criminals will reportedly be held accountable by Ukraine. 2602:306:CD59:5240:990B:9693:A255:353C (talk) 11:43, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And where are the reliable sources saying this? TylerBurden (talk) 16:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BBC investigation

According to Telegraph:[1] "Meanwhile serious questions over their association with fanatics and criminals remain - human rights groups have raised concern about their activities, and a BBC investigation found the group were operating in the same area where a video that showed the deliberate “kneecapping” of Russian prisoners of war was filmed. The regiment has denied any connection."
According to BBC:[2]: "Over the weekend of 26-27 March, a video was posted online showing the activities of the Kraken unit, affiliated with the far-right National Corps political grouping. The BBC has geo-located footage from this video to the village of Vilkhivka, 3.5 miles (5.6km) from Malaya Rohan. The weather is similarly sunny and dry. The group said 30 Russians were taken prisoner in the village on 25 March and the Kraken video has footage of PoWs bound, blindfolded and being bundled into a van at one point and forced to sing the Ukrainian national anthem at another point. But there is no shooting or serious violence towards them. The BBC contacted Konstantin Nemichev, head of the National Corps in the Kharkiv region. He said his forces treated prisoners "humanely" and denied any connection to the video of the alleged shootings at the dairy."
I added this text to the article: "A BBC investigation into the case of the torture of Russian soldiers in Mala Rohan revealed that the regiment Kraken was active in the same area where the war crime occurred. The regiment denied being involved in it."

My part was reverted[3] by a user with this motivation: "That is not what the source says at all. One more attempt like that at misrepresenting sources and it’s reporting time". I have reread the text of the two sources a dozen times and do not understand what I did wrong. Could someone make me understand which part I have misinterpreted? Maybe I misunderstood some words in English? Mhorg (talk) 15:49, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In your edit [4] you include: "the regiment Kraken was active in the same area where the war crime occurred". Assuming this is a correct summary of sources (I did not check them very carefully), should this be included to the page? If according to investigation, it were definitely they who committed a war crime, then it would need to be included. But the sources do not say it (if I am not mistaken). Hence, arguably undue on the page.My very best wishes (talk) 02:28, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It does not say it it was definitely them, rather obvious that by adding that they were in the area the implication is it was them though. Interesting how Mhorg deems this relevant to add, despite the numerous other units in the area, but an actual quote from the leader of the unit he deems irrelevant. TylerBurden (talk) 16:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian propaganda

Why here is russian propaganda? It was founded in March, not February and what is the bullshit about far-right etc. And what is the 'Main Directorate of Intelligence'! 176.37.105.85 (talk) 05:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All of the information on the article is from the cited references, so if something is wrong, please provide a reliable source supporting the correction. TylerBurden (talk) 11:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SSO Azov Kharkiv

It's so tiring to be blamed for something you didn't do.

It is written 1 to 1 on the page: https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/azov-battalion Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 11:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If Azov and Kraken are connected, this must be written down. Mhorg (talk) 12:08, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 12:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is already on the article that Kraken was formed by Azov veterans, literally in the lead, @Uwdwadafsainainawinfi continues to restore content not included in the reference, namely their exact structure. TylerBurden (talk) 00:46, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"In addition to Azov SSO-Kharkiv, veterans of the Azov Regiment and members of the broader Azov Movement also formed the reconnaissance and sabotage special unit Kraken within the first 4 months of the Russian invasion, which now has 1,500 members."

It is clearly based on Azov SSO-Kharkiv... Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 11:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That just says that veterans formed Kraken, like they formed Azov SSO. You're just making your own WP:SYNTH conclusions. It's quite tiring having someone persistently disrupt an article you created and have taken care to make sure is properly referenced. TylerBurden (talk) 02:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see there's no point in talking to you, so do whatever you want. Uwdwadafsainainawinfi (talk) 10:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Uwdwadafsainainawinfi You need to work on your reading comprehension as well as carefully read WP:SYNTH, you have gone from using Tweets as references to adding content with references not supporting the content itself. I am not joking with the message I left on your talk page, the next time I see you do this, I will report you. TylerBurden (talk) 04:43, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal of changing the article's name from 'Kraken Regiment' to 'Kraken Special Unit'.

Due to the fact that almost entirely every social media or media content related to the unit referring to them as 'Kraken Special Unit', would it not make more sense for the article to be moved to that name rather than 'Kraken Regiment'? Additionally, if we assume that the numbers within this unit is indeed approximately 1500 men, then this is almost double the size of a Regiment which is usually around 800 men. To me, I believe this just makes entirely more sense, especially since Kraken's very own YouTube and Telegram channels are called 'Kraken Special Unit'.

I thought that sharing this proposal would be a good way to spark up discussion so I can gain other insightful opinions from others, I will not be changing the name of the Article as I do not want to potentially break any rules, I am open to hearing others opinions first and would prefer that if anybody who is more experienced at moving articles would agree then they would do so instead. Davomme (talk) 16:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would need to be established as clearly being the WP:COMMONNAME first. Despite the goods points you raise, I'm not sure if it is more common in independent, reliable English-language sources, even the more recent sources have still used regiment. If you have some data showing that it has become the most commonly used name, then I wouldn't be opposed to a move. TylerBurden (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should use the most common name. Mhorg (talk) 17:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources inferring or stating 'special unit'.

https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/ukrainian_kraken_elite_unit_in_vanguard_of_the_kharkiv_counteroffensive-4975.html

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/17176

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/13/front-line-kraken-ragtag-voluntary-regiment-liberating-kharkiv/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12093283/The-Ukrainian-football-ultras-fighting-Putin-Inside-elite-Kraken-unit.html

https://news.yahoo.com/kraken-special-unit-fpv-drone-163900896.html

https://news.yahoo.com/dramatic-video-ukraine-kraken-special-113700723.html

https://english.nv.ua/nation/hur-military-intelligence-reveals-how-specialized-unit-kraken-fought-russia-in-kharkiv-50367903.html

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3776856-zelensky-praises-kraken-special-force-unit-for-exceptional-battlefield-performance.html

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/kraken-special-forces-unit-carries-out-operations-in-bilohorivka/

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/tornado-u-trophy-armored-vehicle-restored-for-kraken-regiment/

Sources inferring or stating 'regiment'.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/06/03/ukraine-kraken-volunteer-military-unit/

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2023/03/12/7392249/

https://www.lordashcroft.com/2023/09/my-latest-special-report-from-the-frontline-in-eastern-ukraine/

https://news.yahoo.com/ukrainian-kraken-regiment-show-small-105355761.html

https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/14010528000400/MD-'Kraken'-Nainaliss-Gn-Dwn-00-Ukrainian-Servicemen-Wh-Fled-Amid

https://www.newsweek.com/watch-ukrainian-kraken-special-ops-unit-hits-russian-headquarters-1719987

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2023-05-17/185623/

These are the sources I have managed to source surrounding the titles of the unit. While there are definitely almost matching number of articles to back up the name of the 'Kraken Regiment' - I would definitely argue that the title of "Kraken Special Unit" is more acceptable. This is because majority of 'large' and 'reputable' news outlets such as the Daily Mail and the Telegraph have referred to the group as either 'Kraken Special Forces Unit' or 'Kraken Special Unit'. I also believe that this would be a much more accurate name due to the fact that it is a direct translation from Ukrainian, Kraken itself exceeds the size of a regiment by over a thousand people. Overall, I don't believe the name 'Kraken Regiment' is a suitable name for the previously mentioned reasons. Any disputes or opposition to my standpoint I am willing to hear out, I will not be changing the name of the article until there is a consensus. Davomme (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]