Talk:Knight of Malta (disambiguation)

Knight of Malta

The introductory line of Knight of Malta (disambiguation) stated "The title Knight of Malta is used by members of a number of different organisations all informally known as the Order of Malta, or originating from the Order of Malta." This was introduced with this edit and is probably a speculation for the sake of having an introductory line. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record: Knight of Malta and Knight of Malta (disambiguation) redirect now to Knights of Malta (disambiguation).

It should be verified which of the referenced organisations use the term "Knight of Malta". This is not clear, even if the order's name is "Knights of Malta". Also there seem to be organisations not mentioned here, which also are using the term "Knight of Malta".

-- Tomdo08 (talk) 15:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

from Category:Knights of Malta:

The names on this list are, or were, members of the Knights Hospitaller as established by papal bull, or members of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Members of the allied Protestant orders are usually referred to as a Knight of St. John or as a Johanniter.

-- Tomdo08 (talk) 21:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added "Some of these organisations use the term Knight of Malta" to the article page. I would like to insist to only be more specific, if there is evidence. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

St John or St. John

Generally both is possible, but also generally the official usage should be honored. That is St. John for Knights Hospitaller and Sovereign Military Order of Malta; and it is St John for Venerable Order of Saint John and St John Ambulance. -- Tomdo08 (talk) 00:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I found there to be a problem with the official naming of St John for Venerable Order of Saint John and St John Ambulance. Both organisations seem to give contradicting self descriptions of their own names. You may want to have a look at a connected discussion -- Tomdo08 (talk) 11:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe there IS an 'official' line here. It is simply a question of style. Traditionally, "ST" is followed by a full-stop, but modern usage tends not to apply one. In my profession, it is a very common word, and I have noticed that increasingly the full-stop is dropped in common use. As it is a contraction, not an abbreviation, it is debatable as to whether the full-stop was ever correct. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 01:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to point out that there is a difference between the short form "St." of the word "Saint" in for example "Saint John" and a dedicated name "Order of St. John": In the first case there is a shortening of a name (leaving aside the matter of "saint" being really part of the name). In the second case the shortening is already part of the name. Of course this only applies if there is such a dedicated name.

Here I thought that "St John Ambulance" is such a dedicated name, in this case an official name without a dot. But it might indeed be the case that there is no official name. Then the traditional name could be such a dedicated name, this time probably with the dot.

Apart from dedicated names there are several other considerations, but all seem to be inconclusive.

Mentioning other considerations, I would like to point out that the writing in question is the writing for the international head organisation, both in history and in presence.

In the end you might be right: there is no inherent preference and we should fall back to general style. But even then there should be a preference for British style, the organisation being a British one. Also, if there is no current preference, old British style would have some special weight.

-- Tomdo08 (talk) 21:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"obsolete"?

"Knights of Malta" might be obsolete as the actual legal name, but it is still used by the members of the SMOM itself to describe themselves individually and collectively. See Knights of Malta--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 12:28, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. In general I think the last edit of this page was unhelpful. There is no need for sectioning of a disambiguation page with only three entries; and certainly "Knights of Malta" is not an obsolete term in relation to SMOM. I suggest a reversion to the previous version by User:Mcferran. Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 20:14, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]