Talk:Kirin J. Callinan

Not full stop?

From MOS:INITIALS: "An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless:

• the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for his or her own name; and
• an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person."

Is that the case here? Without that info, this page should be returned to Kirin J. Callinan. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:55, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Reviewing album art and various online profiles, his middle name is more commonly "J" than "J." with a full stop. I suspect his middle name is one letter, as I've never seen more in any source. +mt 20:15, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

"more commonly" is not "overwhelming majority in reliable sources" (the references used in the article more often use the full stop), and there's nothing from the first criterion, so we should use the full stop, per MOS:INITIALS? -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

As for reliable sources not sourced in the article, I see that they are split (e.g. [1]). I'd weigh in the artist's preference more (visible in all his personal social media links), which is usually without full stop. (Note there is a similar issue with the S in Harry S. Truman, but Harry himself generally used a full stop). +mt 21:22, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Those personal social media links should be added to the article then? -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:17, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Social media links are discouraged (WP:ELNO), but considering he has no official website, I may select at least one active social media channel as a surrogate for an official website. +mt 20:36, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

I believe official social media presence URLs fall under the exception at the top of WP:ELNO. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:56, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'm now on-board for a full stop on the middle initial, as his middle name is now revealed as John according to this ref, and others (e.g. here). +mt 21:01, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

@HappyWaldo:, please discuss here too. The single cover for Big Enough (Kirin J. Callinan song) depicts the full stop, as does the cover photo he uses for his Facebook page[2], so the person does not have "a different, consistently preferred style for his or her own name" (MOS:INITIALS), and so Mwtoews recent move should be restored, even if we don't spell out the middle name per WP:BLPPRIVACY (since it's not "widely published", although I don't see any evidence that Callinan has a preference to keep it private). -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

There are some exceptions, but it's clear that Kirin and reliable secondary sources almost always drops the full stop. It tells me that that's his preferred style. And his full name gets only a few hits on search engines, and it's only in regards to copyright law. It would be bizarre for Wiki to be the first significant site to publish this information. - HappyWaldo (talk) 00:28, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting restoring his full name. This is just about the title of the article and the use of the full stop. The references used in the article are split in their usage (not almost always), and the person's social media and published works are inconsistent. The things that "tell you" what his preferred style is are not indications of his preferred style, which as far as I can tell he has not expressed, and they don't meet the Wikipedia guidelines. -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:09, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

"split in their usage" Let's see: Amazon, Pitchfork, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Bandcamp, Soundcloud, Reddit, TED, Discogs, RYM, Genius etc etc. Kirin drops the full stop for all of his personal accounts, and most companies and publishers follow suit. Hence why it tells me it's his preferred style. - HappyWaldo (talk) 04:26, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

"references used in the article are split in their usage". Your conclusion about his preferred style is not a reliable source, but original research. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:07, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Having looked into the "J" versus "J." middle initial, I can only see that they both used. I can see that the artist generally prefers "J" for social media profiles, and "J." is used for some album art (including a song with 45M views). There is a minor bias in MOS:INITIALS to use the full stop. But if the artist would much prefer to only use "J", then this should be used instead. I'm currently neutral on the article names, but am following the discussion. +mt 20:21, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

And if the artist ever expresses any preference, that'd be fine. But since even he does not consistently use one or the other and has made no explicit observation of his preference, we'd go with the full stop. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:16, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good with me. And if anyone does find a source stating that the artist prefers his middle initial without a fullstop, then that's enough rational to justify that name instead. +mt 20:36, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Why not middle name?

@HappyWaldo: @Mwtoews: @JHunterJ: Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia: not a news gathering agency nor a social media website. The artist's middle name is found in multiple reliable sources. One such source is the APRA one cited above (and previously in the article). The artist (or their agent) supplied the full name to that organisation. According to WBLPPRIVACY: "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public."[italics added for emphasis] His full dob is in the article and has not been removed. Some readers of this article believe the artist's middle name is J (or Jay). Has the artist expressed a preference over WP's usage of dob or full name? If so, could you provide a link. Otherwise explain why is the middle name not included?–shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:26, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

It's public information here that his full name is "Kieran John Callinan" with a trading name "Kirin J. Callinan", used since 27 February 2009. It's only possibly "news" that this information is not found in an interview or other news article on the artist. My preference is to show this info, since it's pubic information, but there is otherwise nothing more to expand in the article on why he chooses to use the pseudonym first names "Kirin J", as there is no other source with this rationale. +mt 20:15, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh silly me – I finally noticed the different spellings of his first name! This should also be in the article.–shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 20:54, 30 September 2019 (UTC)