Talk:Kingdom of the Isles/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) 20:42, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Sources

• "The main Norse text is the Orkneyinga Saga, which was written in the early 13th century by an unknown Icelandic scribe and should be treated with care." Why should it be treated with care? Because it was written towards the end of the kingdom, or is it considered to be unreliable in some way?

Reworded and added "based on oral traditions"

• "The English and Irish sources are more contemporary, but may have 'led to a southern bias in the story', especially as much of the Hebridean archipelago became Norse-speaking during this period. What period? During the existence of the Kingdom of the Isles?

Added "during the period under consideration"

• "It is also important to bear in mind ...". Who says it's important to bear in mind?

Sorry - now "It should also be borne in mind..."

• "Dates should be regarded as approximate throughout." I'm a little unhappy about that imperative.

I am not overly pleased myself - at the vague and contradictory nature of the sources. I have added something less stentorian.

Early Viking incursions in the Hebrides

• "Ketill Flatnose is also sometimes equated with Caittil Find ...". It seems odd to start talking about Ketill again after we seem to have dealt with him in the previous paragraph.

Fix attempted.

House of Ímar

• "Iona was sacked twice, in 986 and 987, Amlaíb Cuarán's later piety notwithstanding." I'm struggling to see what Amlaíb Cuarán's piety has to do with events that happened six or seven years after he had been succeeded as king.

I moved a note into the text. The idea here is that although Uncle Olaf seemed to have repented of his warlike ways in his final years, this did not prevent his successors from raiding the holy isle. The conversion of the Norse to Christianity is very poorly attested and understood - but see Orkney#Norwegian rule for a story from a source that "should be treated with care."

• "This may mean that Iona and Mull lay either within or close to the emerging kingdom of Scotland." Why "kingdom of Scotland" but "Kingdom of the Isles"?

Sheer prejudice. Fixed.

Earls of Orkney and Kings of Dublin

• "However in the mid-11th century Echmarcach mac Ragnaill is said to be the ruler of Man." What's that "however" trying to suggest?

It is an attempt to distingush him from the Norwegian's in the above para. Added "the Uí Ímair dynast".

Godred Crovan and Irish influence

• "'Crovan' means 'white hand' and Godred may have been a son or nephew of Imar mac Arailt, King of Dublin and by extension a descendant of Amlaíb Cuarán." I really can't see the connection between the "white hand" reference and what follows.

One of the characters in the Lyonesse Trilogy refers to "having several thoughts at once" and I suffer from the same malady. There is, as you surmise, no connection at all. I will see what can be done (for the sentence - I am a lost cause).

Amended.

• "It is not clear the extent to which Ui Briain dominance was now asserted in the islands north of Man." Should that be "Ui Briain's dominance"?

I am not 100% sure, but I think it is acceptable to refer the "Stewart dominance of Medieval Scotland" or "the Windsor dominance of BBC domestic news output". If it needed the apostrophe, presumably "to which the Ui Briains' dominance". Not changed.

Somerled

• "It is possible that Somerled first found favour with Olave by helping him wrest control of the northern Hebrides from the Earls of Orkney, whose influence had once more spread into the Sudreys. Somerled's popularity led to his son with Ragnhildis, Dubgall, being heralded throughout the Isles (save Man itself) ...". the article doesn't seem to be consistent about "Man" or "Mann".

I attempted to use "Mann" for the kingdom and "Man" for the island, although the distinction is blurred. I will look at this asap.

Fixes attempted.

"... whose influence had once more spread into the Sudreys". What are the Sudreys?

Added "often referred to as the Sudreys" to Geog section.

A divided kingdom

• "... the Scottish monarchs sought to take a control of the islands". Should that really be "a control"?

Nyet. Fixed

• "One his death in 1187 ...". Should that be "On his death"?

Indeed yes - fixed.

Life in Norse times

• "It is known that Hebrides were taxed using the Ounceland system ...". Should that be "the Hebrides"?

Indeed yes - fixed.

References

• The ISBN for Haswell-Smith, Hamish (2004) The Scottish Islands is incorrect, only 12 characters.

Fixed. Ben MacDui 10:56, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review. All the above attended to. Ben MacDui 12:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)