Talk:Kingdom of Diarra

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Multiple Kingdoms or not

hey @Kowal2701, I saw you added some content about the Kingdom of Diafunu here. I'm not sure whether or not these kingdoms are the same, or related, or totally different. Do you have a source that clarifies the question and that made you confident about adding the Diafunu stuff? Catjacket (talk) 15:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm 85% sure, see [1] page 124. I've also seen the Diawara revolt in the Mali Empire called the Diafunu revolt, and that article linked says Mali suffered a violent revolt in its northern province of Difunu or Diara. Diawara was the ruling clan of Diarra. Diafunu means "people of Dia", and Diarra was settled from Dia, (there's sources in the Names section and the first sentence of the history section). It's certainly not as clear cut as I'd like though. Is there anything that sticks out to you? Kowal2701 (talk) 15:58, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An issue to resolve at some point: the Songhai empire supposedly conquered Diafunu from the Mali Empire in 1501, and then incorporated Diarra in 1512 - see Askia Muhammad I. It's easy to imagine that it wasn't really 'conquered' so much as 'forced to pay tribute', which I think was far more common than outright administrative takeover, and so these two campaigns could still be dealing w/ the same polity. I've also seen sources that say the Malimansa expected help from his 'vassal' in Diafunu as late at the early 17th century, but didn't get it. It's worth looking into, because so far I haven't seen a source deal w/ both 'invasions' at the same time that I remember. Catjacket (talk) 21:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds about right, this page is in need of some love Kowal2701 (talk) 21:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And we haven't even gotten into whether Kaniaga is Diarra, Sosso Empire, or something else entirely... Catjacket (talk) 21:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Think Kaniaga just means north if I remember correctly. I’m really surprised at how thin the literature is. Btw there’s a ‘new’ empire found in the Congo, Mwene Muji, gonna make a page on it [2] Kowal2701 (talk) 22:05, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah I remember reading that somewhere as well... if you find a source for Kaniaga = north please share.

Also share the Mwene Muji page when it's up. I have a lot of backlog but will maybe one day be able to help out. Catjacket (talk) 22:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind I think I was the one who put Kaniaga = north on the Sosso Empire page Catjacket (talk) 22:27, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lol Kowal2701 (talk) 07:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Catjacket Kowal2701 (talk) 16:00, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think you're right, but it would be good for it to be clearer. I'll make some changes to integrate a source or two that speak mostly about Diafunu, and explain the name situation in more detail. Catjacket (talk) 16:03, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. It's also been called "Diaghan" [3] but there's less on that. There's been very little archaeological work done in this area because of the Mali war Kowal2701 (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have the full text for that Hunter source? I don't see the term "Diaghan" in the preview that's available at that link. Diagha-Ba was a town in Bambouk I believe, it's not the same as Diafunu/Diarra, in case that's what you meant. Catjacket (talk) 21:57, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a better link but Niane says it here [4] pg. 133 Kowal2701 (talk) 22:09, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know of some of the kingdoms here? Namely Yaresna, Ghiryu, and Sama? Yaresna is a trading town ([5]), Sama was a province of Ghana [6], but I can't find anything on Ghiryu Kowal2701 (talk) 17:57, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much, but I have come across those names relatively frequently. Since none of them have Wikipedia pages I haven't bothered keeping track of all the little facts about them. If you think it's worth making pages for them we could do that.

Ghiryu from what I remember was perhaps an Arabic version of the town of Goudiourou near Kayes in Mali, but I don't know much about that town othat than that it's Soninke (birthplace of Mahmadu Lamine ). In fact I can't even find it on a map. Dierk Lange thought Yaresna was Dia, but his geographic readings of the sources aren't widely accepted (or at all, as far as I've seen). It was probably a trading town on the Senegal river that was at various times part of Takrur and maybe Sillah. I don't know anything really about Sama, tho Lange and Hunwick did a liiiittle bit of speculating about its location, ethnic mix etc. It might be the same as San, Mali Catjacket (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, thank you. I don’t know whether they deserve their own page Kowal2701 (talk) 21:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, at Draft:Oral traditions of the Soninke people#Dama Ngile and the Kingdom of Diarra there's an oral tradition of the Kusa (which don't have a page) Kowal2701 (talk) 18:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Somehow I'm just now getting around to reading 'The Conquest that Never Was'. If Conrad and Fisher are right, then Diarra never became indendent of Ghana, and therefore the king of Diafunu would have been the Emperor of Ghana. Catjacket (talk) 18:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I follow, Diarra would've still existed and had a king, just that he would've been a Ghanian vassal. Like how Mali was made up of subordinate kingdoms each with a farin or representative of the mansa.

We know Ghana went around forcing conversion of Islam on its provinces, as in the case of Silla, which could account for the destruction, and that they asked for help from the Almoravids, which can be simplified to an Almoravid agenda/Almoravids acting through Ghana in oral tradition. What I'm struggling to get my head around is this, page 124. Is it saying Sain Demba was a capital of Ghana? And what's the Kaniaga Faren? Kowal2701 (talk) 19:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that the "King of Zafunu" described by Yaqut may have actually been the emperor of Ghana, because even if the Almoravids were subservient to Ghana they would not have bowed to another vassal, presumably. In Part II Conrad and Fisher mention that drought may have driven the Magha into Kingi, which would have made him the King of Zafunu. It's impossible to know, I'm just speculating. So many questions for archaeology to answer.

Don't simplify anything to an Almoravid agenda or them acting through Ghana. If Conrad and Fisher are right, the Almoravids were not in any sense in charge of Ghana. Considering the history of War Jabi, it's not hard to imagine them as genuinely pious and zealous Muslims eager to take the jihad south.

Seems to me that Sain Demba was the capital of the region known as Diafunu. Whether it was the capital of any larger state is unclear. The Kaniaga Faren is, according to this version of the Tarikh el-Fettash, the Diawara, vassals of Mali. Some sources talk about how Diafunu resisted Mali for a long time, presumably under the Niakhate. So the Diawara being the Mali governors of Kaniaga (east of Diarra) then conquering Diarra makes sense. Catjacket (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you might be right, I don't see how Diarra would've had that relationship with the Almoravids, especially in the 12th century, nor how the king would be "more powerful and more versed in the art of ruling than [other West African princes]". I'm inclined to believe the Soninke oral accounts regarding the Almoravids are based on historical events rather than revisionism. What do we do with the Yaqut quote? Kowal2701 (talk) 19:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was saying that over time, it may have been simplified to an Almoravid agenda which could explain why sources say the Almoravids conquered Ghana. Another perspective is that sources are largely Arab and the conversion of Ghana could have been received as a great victory by the Almoravids and as significant as a conquest. Kowal2701 (talk) 20:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What Soninke oral accounts are you referring to regarding the Almoravids? from what I've seen they're only mentioned by Arabic sources, most of which don't mention a conquest.

Unfortunately for the Yaqut quote this is all speculation on our part. Until a source appears that explicitly makes the Ghana-Diafunu connection we should probably leave everything as is. Catjacket (talk) 20:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I'm not being clear, the oral accounts mentioned in the Arabic sources. We should probably mention that the Yaqut quote only could refer to Diarra, since us equating Zafunu with Diarra is sort of OR Kowal2701 (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]