Talk:Kingdom of Arles

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Burgundy, references

There have been errors on this page, conflating this kingdom with that of the Kingdom of Burgundy. They are distinct Kingdoms, with separate histories and geographic domains that are not identical. Burgundy was north of Arles, and it preceded it, established, late 5th Century, extant to the 14th century. It included territory from land corresponding with the lower section of present-day Alsace, Franche-Compte, and the upper part of present-day Rhone-Alpes; and parts of the western part of present-day Switzerland.

The conflation of the Arles Kingdom with that of Burgundy is not supported by references. Only the southern part of Burgundy was merged into Arles. Previous to today's edits, the article had no footnotes to support its claims.Dogru144 (talk) 15:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed renaming

The naming of the article is problematic, as is the mention of Arles as (sole) capital. The polity referred to was continuously known as Kingdom of Burgundy during at least its first two centuries of existence (10th-12th century). According to Grosse (2014 in cited French version; earlier German version 2005), the reference to Arles only appears in the 12th century, and (page 141 of the French version) Conrad I's authority did not extend beyond the region of Saint-Maurice [d'Agaune] and of Lausanne in the later 10th century. The reference to the article's subject policy as Kingdom of Arles exists in older (mostly German-speaking?) literature but does not appear to be widespread in more recent scholarship. It would be worth changing the article's name with a more explicit reference to Burgundy, even though a mention of Arles could be kept since it is relevant for the later period (late 12th century to extinction). Boubloub (talk) 01:03, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you propose to move it to? I do not support Kingdom of Burgundy-Arles, a made-up name. Note that I added the "Literature" section to this page in anticipation of future expansion, which I have yet to get around to. You can see that even some French works with a pre-12th-century focus use "royaume d'Arles" (e.g., Poupardin). This article's current title doesn't bother me for the same reason Byzantine Empire doesn't bother me. Srnec (talk) 14:50, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]