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Talk:Kimitoshi Yamane

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Re:Speedy

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Hello there, I believe this article fits all the possible notability concerns as the subject of this article is amongst the most well-known mechanical designers in Japan and the anime industry. Further details on his biography are provided on the Japanese Wikipedia and all I did was just translate but I did not expect it would be nominated for deletion. I was busy doing some other things so I only just noticed this tag now, so please give me a little more time and I will get to referencing this article in a bit. Thanks. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 21:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's also like a gazillion Japanese references for him around so it will take quite a long time finding suitable references and then translating the bits to put them here. He will also probably be mentioned in US sites such as Anime News Network or well-known mecha resources but since I'm not really familiar with those sites it will take quite a bit of time finding those references. In the mean time, I'll be adding references based on what I can find on such short notice. As said previously, the article's content was merely a translation of the Japanese Wikipedia's article so I did not really add any references as the Japanese Wikipedia does not do so for anime-based articles there. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 21:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He's also published and authored numerous books on mecha, that are in Japanese, so I will also need a bit of time referencing them and their ISBNs. Yamane's also one of the most famous mecha designers in Japan so his name is in a lot of Japanese manga magazines such as Newtype or Animage, and perhaps in Newtype USA, but since I don't have them on me right now I will need some time referencing these, and that is quite a hassle finding and looking through them, believe me. I really didn't expect finding a speedy tag so soon since Yamane really is amongst the most well-known designers around and this has caught me by surprise. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 21:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:BIO. - He does not meet those qualifications. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he actually does. He's as well known as Kunio Okawara so I would ask you to refer to details on production, such as Japanese publications and DVD extras, that have far more information than some websites on the internet, to know more about him. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 22:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, prove it. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, of course. But finding references takes time, and patience. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 22:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I just found a Anime News Network detailing a Newtype USA article which has an interview with Yamane's involvement Argento Soma. I will be adding that and I think places like Newtype and ANN probably have far more, so I need just a bit to gather these. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 22:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is the article: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2001-03-05/english-newtype-online-site-updated. But the site appears to be dead? Does anyone have a link to the archived version of this site or where Newtype's current site is? Thanks a lot! ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 22:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NewType is long gone. Maybe Archive.org will have an old copy, but one interview does not make significant coverage. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's probably a lot more interviews from the Japanese versions, so maybe Nihonjoe could help me out with those (though I'm not sure whether he's active on the project as I haven't been here in a long time) or someone else who has those magazines. There are lots of articles here too: [1] [2] Escaflowne movie announcements and New Escaflowne, Final Fantasy movie details announced from ANN and probably more, so I'll add them up, but I'm kind of worn down here and will take some time somehow adding all these into the article. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 22:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Nihonjoe is still active in the project. What are those sources supposed to be for? He worked on the series? Okay...but thats not significant coverage about him, its about the series and he's only listed in passing as part of the credits. None say anything besides he did mecha designs. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it might just be one interview, but it could be helpful to people who are working on Argento Soma and that article on Newtype USA has actually got other stuff on his involvement, including his original illustrations and designs. Argento Soma is just one series though, he's worked on far more than I can even remember right now (but mentioned in the article, nonethess). ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 22:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are also other articles that I've seen in Japanese websites detailing his career so I will be looking to add those too (anyone involved with translating and referencing articles from the Japanese Wikipedia will know what sites they are, I think they are mentioned in the WikiProject Japan page/section for references/sources somewhere). ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, saying you've seen them is meaningless if you can't actually find them. And please refamiliarize yourself with WP:RS and maybe with some of the basic editing guidelines. Simply shoving in those sources above to fluff out the prose with a repeat of the credit list does not improve the article nor really add any notability to it. He did mecha designs for several works, that's noted. I've moved your sources to the works list and removed the unnecessary redundant prose (as well as corrected your ANN copy/paste list). -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why exactly are you removing references that have been added to this article? Also, his notability has indeed been established, so how exactly does this article not meet the notability criteria? The fact that he has worked on these works as the primary mecha designer - please see the credits for these shows - and the fact that his name has always been associated with these works is proof enough that he's notable. Please mantain good faith here. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See the note above. You didn't add any real references, only references to his list of credits. Those have been moved to the works list. Repeating that list in prose adds nothing to the article. His notability has NOT been established. You've yet to provide a single reference that does more than note that "he did mecha designs for X" which does NOT establish notability. You've basically provided a list of his credits, which is no different from his IMDB list. Whether he is the primary is irrelevant. Again, read WP:N and WP:BIO. Significant Coverage is required, not minor notes while listing the various series/film credits, to show notability. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there are several Japanese internet resources, as well as hundreds of magazine articles on him, but I don't have those magazines with me and I'm not sure on the exact format of how to add references about magazine articles that I don't have myself, so this is why I am asking Nihonjoe and other editors on the Gundam Project to help me find these references. That will take some time as I am currently on a break and will be away from the computer, as I don't spend time on Wikipedia all day.···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, if you only think there are sources, but don't actually know what they are nor have access to them, it doesn't matter if you think they exists. If the article is deleted, userfy it and work on it when you do have the time to find the sources, then recreate AFTER you have established his notability by providing those sources (and not just a bunch of ANN articles that all essentially note "Yamane did mecha designs" without saying anything else about him. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I have found an article with the English transcript of an interview with Kimitoshi Yamane from the Cowboy Bebop DVD releases, on his work on Cowboy Bebop. The transcript is here: http://www.jazzmess.com/sessions/session0.html and I think we can add references for DVD publications, so I will be adding these. The transcript will also be helpful for people who want to know what exactly was being said. I would like to add this, but if user Collectorian removes this too, I really don't know what exactly to do. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can add a reference ot the DVD publication, however linking to that "transcript" seriously violates WP:COPYRIGHT and would be removed. And the interview has no content of value to this article (which is a BIOGRAPHY). It is likely to provide good production information for the CB article, however, but not with that link. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't even started searching yet (not thoroughly at least) and only found these on the first attempt, as these sites come first in Google searches. But if whatever I add gets reverted and removed (things such as interviews and the like which have been published in notable sources and confirms the subject's notability), it really makes finding references a hassle. I have found Japanese references too but I don't know if they'll get removed. Good faith is the least an editor can ask, and such speedy delete tags really do not help. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
)EC) Speedy tags have nothing to do with WP:AGF at all. I never questioned that you acted in good faith when you created the article. That still doesn't make it a notable topic. Nor does AGF mean allowing pointless/redundant references that don't actually source anything not already noted, nor does it mean saying "sure, go ahead and violate one of Wikipedia's most stringently enforced policies and international copyright laws" just because you seem a bit behind on Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. AGF doesn't mean letting you do whatever you want just because you may not realize it isn't appropriate or that its incorrect. References need to be reliable, specific, and exist. Pointing to a copyright violating transcript does nothing as such sites automatically fail WP:RS and are basically meaningless to Wikipedia. References that meet WP:RS and actually provide biographical content are fine. Just saying "he was interviewed" doesn't add anything either. You may want to look at some actually higher quality biographies to see what a biography article should be. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The interview might be a minor point, but it does say that Bebop was his most challenging work due to it having a new vision - I think that might help the article, and if it does work on the Bebop article and is notable information, how does that not establish his notability? ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is notable information with regard to Bebop and its production. That does not mean that HE is notable, it means Bebop is notable, as is information on how it was created. Notability is not inherited. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Triangle.com has a review noting of Yamane's importance in Cowboy Bebop. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does not meet WP:RS. See if you can find the original Chicago Tribune article, but again, it speaks to CB's reception, not Yamane's biography. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strange Horizons has another article on his involvement as one of the core staff behind Bebop.···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it speaks to CB's reception, not his biography. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
anime.net details another interview with Kimitoshi Yamane that was published in the VHS tapes for Vision of Escaflowne. I do not have these but someone who does have these (or DVDs of the show) can provide that reference I think. This is a prime example of why a speedy delete tag does not serve to help this article and only hinder any progress it might achieve. His notability has been established and if it is still being doubted, then I am afraid good faith is being totally disregarded. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I would like to add, to any neutral person that is overseeing this discussion, that since this has been published along with the show in its VHS and DVD issues, then if the show itself is notable and being published in the same medium, I do not see how an interview with Yamane in the same published medium cannot be considered notable. At least it surely does not deserve a speedy delete tag. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 23:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you even know what AGF means at all? It doesn't seem so since you keep claiming good faith isn't being followed just because his notability is questioned. Ans sorry, but again, primary source interviews do NOT establish notability, nor do on-disc/tape extras. This has long been established and upheld at the various notability guidelines. Because it is produced by the series makers, it is not neutral and does not establish his notability anymore than any other series extras would establish anyone else's notability. Instead of continuing to assume bad faith, why not actually read some of the policies and guidelines I've pointed you to. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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