Talk:Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Scope of this article

During the 1948-9 war, there were many battles in which a significant number of combatants were killed. The lead paragraph of this article, and almost all of the content, suggests that such battles are not appropriate for this page. Does anyone want to argue otherwise? Zero^talk 04:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the lead can be made more explicit. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that the deaths resulting from battles (KIA soldiers) are not appropriate for this article and should not be referred to as 'massacres'.

That is also the principle that is used by Benny Morris is his book '1948' and what justifies this article. The 'massacres' (of civil and unarmed soldiers) that occured during the 1948 wars is a relevant topic that deserves an article in wikipedia because they have had consequences (on the exodus and on the historiography of the events). The difference to make between a 'battle' and a 'massacre' is also supported by historians in the article (Morris again but Picaudou and Millstein also argues this.)

What is your concern with this ? Do you see some POV or do you think some battles are particularly relevant in the same context ? Pluto2012 (talk) 14:21, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

No, I think battles should be excluded. Otherwise the list would become very much longer and the point of the article would be lost. Only incidents that are credibly arguable to be massacres, or at least "collatoral damage", should be included. That means, for example, that the Convoy of 35 does not belong here (all sides call it a battle and only soldiers were killed). Zero^talk 11:44, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Concur with Zero. A set 'battle' is one thing. No one calls casualties and fatalities in an armed conflict conducted in a war between two sides killings or massacres. The latter occur when unarmed, disarmed soldiers, or non-combatants die directly as a consequence of a decision or act which kills people threats from whom have been neutralized. These are defined quite specifically in the rules of war and in the protocols parties to a conflict are obliged by international law to respect.Nishidani (talk) 12:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

That is also my mind. (I removed yechiam convoy some days ago.) But I wonder if prisonners were not killed after the battle of the convoy of the 35 (?) Pluto2012 (talk) 17:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Both sides agree that they "fought to the last man". No prisoners were taken. Zero^talk 23:37, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Revert war regarding Benny Morris

As I said in the edit summary, this is an issue of style (WP:MOS) and style only. Article body text needs to be able to stand on its own, without mandating looking at the references. The following text:

As regards massacres and attacks against Arabs, "Yishuv troops probably murdered some 800 civilians and prisoners of war".[1]

is bad style, because it is unclear where the quote is coming from. Moreover the whole passage reads more like a newspaper article than an encyclopedia. If you don't want to mention Morris here, please edit the passage in a way that it paraphrases Morris, instead of including a direct quote.

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

It can be paraphrased. That is not an issue.

But it is not true that it would be a badstyle or that it is unclear where the quote could come from. It comes from the references given at the end of the sentence. That is done that way in several historical books. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Ynhockey. I think the last edit may have resolved the issue.

When I've seen it done in books, Pluto2012, it's usually clear from context who's being quoted. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

How about just making it so its not a direct quote? nableezy - 19:23, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I have paraphrased.

It is obvious per NPoV that Morris is not to be named here at the contrary of the next paragraph in the article where it must absolutely be named because there are different pov's on the topic.

In an encyclopaedia where we report the different minds on a topic (per wp:npov), the more accurately possible (when the topic is sensitive and per 2nd pillar : verifiability) but where we are tight to copyright rules (1st pillar), providing short quotes is the best solutions to report facts and analysis.

Pluto2012 (talk) 20:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I edited what you wrote. If you're going to paraphrase, you can't just change one or two words. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok. Much better than what I had done. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:57, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Revert of sourced information

The fact that the combatants killed in the Kfar Etzion massacre were local villagers with added Haganah fighters is sourced and is mentioned in two related Wikipedia articles. My fellow editor Fredrico1234 reverted my edit specifying this saying that the sources I gave are unreliable. Likewise, Zero0000 left a message on my talkpage regarding one of the sources.

In my opinion, both sources are reliable, and the information true. However, since two of my fellow editors seem to disagree, and in view of the sensitivity of this page, I think it is a good idea to ask the opinion of more editors. And perhaps somebody can find an even better source.

Source #1, http://www.etzion-bloc.org.il, is maintained by a regional NGO which studies the history of the region involved. I see no reason to doubt their reliability.

Source #2, http://www.zionism-israel.com/, says on its About page: "Zionism & Israel Center is maintained by a group of volunteers" and "We try to maintain the highest standards of academic and journalistic integrity in our work." It may not have the standards of the National Geographic, e.g., but I see no reason to call it outright unreliable. Debresser (talk) 10:00, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on, zionism-israel.com claims to be, and is, a self-published website dedicated to Israeli advocacy. Of course it is unacceptable; any "group of volunteers" can claim to maintain high standards (and I'm really surprised to see someone with your experience claiming that some "group of volunteers" are a reliable source). www.etzion-bloc.org.il is not an independent third party but a settler organization with a vested interest. They might be notable enough for an attributed opinion but they don't satisfy WP:RS for statements of fact. You can take these to WP:RSN if you like but you won't get anywhere because they are rather routine examples. There are heaps of high quality history books on this subject, why do we need such dross? As for the issue, of course some of the defenders were local residents and some were hagana people who had been sent there. Nobody denies that but it doesn't make them non-combatants. Everyone unable to fight, including all the children and many of the women, had been evacuated. Those remaining were fighters. None of the good histories, as far as I am aware, allege that any of the people there were other than combatants. It is credibly called a "massacre" only on account of the claim (probably true) that many were killed after surrendering. Zero^talk 10:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

What Zero0000 says is correct (and obvious).

Except in very very particular cases, no website can be a wp:rs source for articles dealing with historical events dating back more than 50 years. Pluto2012 (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

First of all, there is no such rule that interested parties can not be reliable sources. Secondly, that "group of volunteers" may be comprised of knowledgeable people of academic repute, for all you know, so I again see no immediate reason to disqualify them. And the most strange thing is that when Zero0000 changed "Civilians" to "Combatants" he gave no source whatsoever, while when I specify that those combatants were part the local villagers and part additional Haganah troops, which is -s ourced or unsourced - a fact, and I DO add sources, my edit is being reverted. Now that is something that I would like to see explained. Debresser (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

You can't keep a source on the basis that it might be reliable. The principle of verifiability implies the opposite, that the reliability must be checkable. Incidentally I have no objection to a formulation like "combatants (residents and Hagana soldiers)". Zero^talk 22:24, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Debresser,

Assuming that what is claimed on the website is correct, it should be easy to find academic sources that confirm this... And that would solve the issue.

Be sure that Zero0000, I or other would bring them if we knew them.

Gush Etzion's civilians were evacuated a few weeks before the events. There were only fighters. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the best thing would be another good source. I, unfortunately, also do not have one. I would gladly agree with "combatants (residents and Hagana soldiers)", as Zero0000 proposed. Which is almost the same as the text that was reverted. But Pluto2012, you claim that would not be true? Debresser (talk) 16:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Debresser,

I think that I understand the misunderstanding.

On 19 November 1947, general conscription had been decided for all men and women between 18 and 25. On 5 April, it is all men and women between 17 and 40 who had been called to conscription. Yishuv was at war. Gush Etzion had been evacuated from the others.

Haganah was divided into mobile and fixed units. At Gush Etzion, fixed units of the "residents" had been reinforced by soldiers from Harel or Etzioni brigades. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

So you would also agree with "combatants (residents and Hagana soldiers)"? By hte way, perhaps you have a source for that information you just provided? Debresser (talk) 20:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Debresser, I agree with Zero0000's proposal. I didn't oppose to this.

I am sure of what I state but I cannot tell you where precisely I read this. And anyway, that should not be in this article. (5 April is the beginning of Nachshon operation and the start of the second phase of the civil war.) Pluto2012 (talk) 07:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

"Against Jews of Palestine" section - Inaccuracies

The last lines of Against Jews of Palestine are dealing with mainly Morris and Gelber views , regarding the Arabs aims. The text is poorly written, with an error, and does not reflect Morris opinion as is. ( I have yet to check Gelber) The text does not deal with the more important aspect- How the Yishuv understood the threats at real time- but elaborate on a secondary important aspect- What do we know nowadays about the Arabs aims.

This text is much larger than the primary content - the first lines (the Arabs threats ) which does not make sense.

In my opinion:

• The first lines (the threats) should be extended.
• we should add how the Yishuv understood the threats at real time.
• the last lines should be fixed or even deleted. Ykantor (talk) 20:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

This article is about killings and massacres. Not about threats. We must try not to expand every article in the Israeli-Palestine area to be about the entire conflict. Zero^talk 20:52, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The section length may stay the same, while extending the first lines ( threats) and removing the last lines (mainly as it seen nowadays). Ykantor (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Ykantor : "The text does not deal with the more important aspect- How the Yishuv understood the threats at real time (...)"

The text : "(...) [Benny Morris] argues that the Yishuv was indeed threatened with extinction and feared what would happen if the Arabs won"

Pluto2012 (talk) 05:27, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion the text:"argues that the Yishuv was indeed threatened with extinction" is redundant, as the threats are directly quoted.
• Morris 2008 p. 397:"The Yishuv’s war aim, initially, was simpler and more modest: to survive; to weather the successive onslaughts, by the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states. The Zionist leaders deeply, genuinely, feared a Middle Eastern reenactment of the Holocaust, which had just ended; the Arabs’ public rhetoric reinforced these fears.". But the article mild text says "feared what would happen if the Arabs won". Ykantor (talk) 06:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:V, the primary sources (quotes from Arabs) are never enough and at the contrary of what you think, the comments made by the historian, ie the secondary source is not redundant but in fact the main point and most important point. Else, it is WP:OR. More, this sentence provides the information that you claim was missing. What you say is not understandable.
• The source that is provided is Benny Morris (2004), p.589-590 where it is written :

"the Pan-Arab invasion (...) threathened the Yishuv with extinction" and "(...) and the Yishuv's fears of what would happen should the Arabs win (...)"

The text is :

"(...) [Benny Morris] argues that the Yishuv was indeed threatened with extinction and feared what would happen if the Arabs won".

But anyway, the meaning is the same as what is written in Morris (2008) p.397.

• Regarding your claim "the article has POV and "dubious" problems |reason=p.396 does not say that"), did you read or check ? The source (Morris (2008) p.396) says :

"The picture of Arab aims was always more complex than Zionist historiography subsequently made out. The chief cause of that complexity was that (...) was generally skeptical of the Arab's ability to defeat (...) the Yishuv"

and the text is :

"According to the Israeli traditional historiography, these statements reflected the Arab intentions. While Benny Morris considers the real picture of the Arab aims to be more complex, notably because they were well aware they could not defeat the Jews (...)"

Pluto2012 (talk) 07:29, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• In my opinion the text:"argues that the Yishuv was indeed threatened with extinction" is redundant, as the threats are quotes of a wp:rs. So there is no need to repeat it later.
• The tag "dubious" is attached to the end of "because they were well aware they could not defeat the Jews" since it is not mentioned in the indicated page.
• The text: "feared what would happen if the Arabs won". You are right that it refers to the aspect of "How the Yishuv understood the threats at real time", and I wrongly said that it is missing. However, although it is correct, it fall short of the fear of repeating the Holocaust (see my previous Morris p. 397 quote). Ykantor (talk) 20:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Point 2 : you write that "it is not mentioned in the indicated page" that "because they were well aware they could not defeat the Jews". It is written here : "The chief cause of that complexity was that (...) was generally skeptical of the Arab's ability to defeat (...) the Yishuv".
• Your point 1 states that mentioning the "Yishuv was threatened with extinction" is redundant and your point 3 states that we should mention the "fear of repeating the holocaust".

I cannot understand.

Pluto2012 (talk) 20:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Change "War" to lower case letters

"War" in the main article's title (1948 Palestine war) has lower case letters so I think this article's title should change to that too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:58, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Why don't you just go ahead and move it? That can't be a controversial move. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:21, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I moved it now. However, a template is left but I will go forward with this issue. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Great. The template was moved. I also moved List of battles and operations in the 1948 Palestine war. --IRISZOOM (talk) 10:10, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

What is this doing here?

Against Jews outside Palestine

Jewish population centers in Arab countries outside Palestine also became threatened, in relation to the partition plan. On November 14, 1947, the Egyptian delegate at the United Nations stated that: 'The proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Muslim countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the antisemitism which the Allies tried to eradicate in Germany'. The UN partition resolution was followed by violence against Jews, as in Aden, in which on 2 December 1947 82 Jews were killed or in Aleppo where ten synagogues, five schools and 150 houses were destroyed soon after.

The New York Times reported a memorandum of the World Jewish Congress expressing concerns about this situation in the edition of 16 May 1948 in an article entitled : "Jews in grave danger in all Moslem lands: Nine hundred thousand in Africa and Asia face the wrath of their foes". In Cairo in Egypt, between June and November 1948, several bombing attacks took place against Jews, killing several dozens of them with an unknown number of victims.

None of this has anything to do textually with the topic,, which visibly focuses on events in Israel/Palestine during the 1947/1948 period.Nishidani (talk) 06:42, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Hasten the exodus or not ?

The lead summarizes the article and the question of the (potential) motivation for these massacres is discussed among scholars. That's here. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:46, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

If whether or not these killings and massacres were carried out with the intent of hastening the exodus, is part of the effects caused by these massacres (it is already mentioned in the previous phrase)[1]. This sentence is repetitive and reduce the historical dispute to this particular controversy. This issue should be discuss further in the article, along with disputed issues and theories concerning the causes and the existence of theses massacres. The matter is, if you repeat it twice, it exclude all the other possibilities. I am concerned by the fact that there is only one sentence about other than the conventional "new historian POV": According to Avi Shlaim, "purity of arms" is one of the key features of 'the conventional Zionist account or old history' whose 'popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war' is 'taught in Israeli schools and used extensively in the quest for legitimacy abroad'.--... Point by point ... (talk) 02:47, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Actually no it's not saying the same thing twice. Effect and intent are two separate concepts.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:14, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Although Pluto2012 I wouldn't say this lead summarizes the article. It's not up to MOS:LEAD standards. By that I mean it could be expanded. But I'm sure that will be fixed before the deadline.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:55, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi user:Serialjoepsycho,

On wp:fr, we always summarize WP:LEAD in stating that the lead summarizes the article; a good reason why it doesn't need to be sourced and why it can only gather material coming from the core of the article.

But on wp:en, it seems the same. In MOS:LEAD, I can read : "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects."

Pluto2012 (talk) 12:52, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

This sentence is repetitive and reduce the historical dispute to this particular controversy. (Ignored argument)

--... Point by point ... (talk) 06:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)Italic text

It's not been ignored. I've already directly responded to it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality

Where are the criticsm of "new historian/arab narrative"?[2]. There is many historians, not just Morris, or "the political-historian group" praised by those who wrote this article.

Secondly, the article is clearly politically-oriented. Almost, All the sources are made of, Benny Morris, Pappé, Esber and Khalidi. Again, I am not a "fan" of old and cranky historians. but, this is too much "neutrality" for me.

I am concerned by the fact that there is only one sentence about other than the conventional "new historian POV": According to Avi Shlaim, "purity of arms" is one of the key features of 'the conventional Zionist account or old history' whose 'popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war' is 'taught in Israeli schools and used extensively in the quest for legitimacy abroad'.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 06:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Most of you argument is "I don't like it". Anything that isn't can simple be responded to with WP:SOFIXIT.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:45, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I see also Efraim Karsh, Yoav Gelber, Uri Milstein, Howard Sachar and Anita Shapira who are not exactly New historians but rather traditionnal ones. Henry Laurens (scholar) is impossible to categorize

Benny Morris is The Reference on the topic and it is difficult to categorize him as well. Let's say pro-Israeli anyway.

The only one whose presence could be discussed is Saleh Abd al-Jawad but we have to use Palestinian historians too...

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:58, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

If whether or not these killings and massacres were carried out with the intent of hastening the exodus, is part of the effects caused by these massacres (it is already mentioned in the previous phrase)[3]. This sentence is repetitive and reduce the historical dispute to this particular controversy. This issue should be discuss further in the article, along with disputed issues and theories concerning the causes and the existence of theses massacres. The matter is, if you repeat it twice, it exclude all the other possibilities. I am concerned by the fact that there is only one sentence about other than the conventional "new historian POV": According to Avi Shlaim, "purity of arms" is one of the key features of 'the conventional Zionist account or old history' whose 'popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war' is 'taught in Israeli schools and used extensively in the quest for legitimacy abroad'.

Israel archives do not confirm any massacre' especially not according to the source. It is only according to some historians, whose have based their works upon thoses archives. Better sources are needed. "Israeli archives do not confirm massacres and the relevant IDF and haganah archives were completely closed due to the Israelis Archives Law (1955). We need more material to alleged this controversial claim".

--... Point by point ... (talk) 22:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

You mean the archives law of 1955 that who's principle is that all material is to be released after thirty years, subject to limitations based on damage to state security, foreign policy or personal privacy. If you want to cast doubt on the reliability of a source this really doesn't make your case. You might also start by mentioning the exact sources you are casting doubt on.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello -Serialjoepsycho-, I think it was rather 50 years when the law passed. Here is the source Serialjoepsycho, Esber 2009, p.356. Morris for example, admitted that he did not had access to many relevant files, because of this law. Of course, my only purpose is to add the template <better source>.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 01:00, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

@Point by point: Since most of the documentation produced by Morris and others regarding the massacres came from the Israeli archives, your statement is factually false. In fact Morris often quotes explicit admissions from the archives. You should read his book before reverting again. Regarding access to Israeli archives, I recommend the informative podcast by Shay Hazkani. Zero^talk 05:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Verification policy requires only the possibility of verification is my interpretation of WP:SOURCEACCESS. However we aren't using the Israeli archives as a source. The question would be if this source being discussed is reliable. I don't have the book but it seems widely available. Evidence that the writer had not viewed the Israeli archives and that he used the archives as a source for his book would open up questions to the reliability of the book but it seems this evidence is lacking. Zero I am assuming here that you have read the source and you have not found where the writer did not have access to the relevant files to make the case that he made? -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:03, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

If we are talking about the book of Benny Morris, he is one of the most prominent Israeli historians and his book is very famous. He had access to a lot of archival files, some which have since been reclassified. He didn't have access to all possible files, but that is true for every historian who works on modern history. Future historians who get access to additional files can correct the record if necessary and we will cite them. It isn't acceptable to omit or tag something just on the off-chance that there might be other evidence hidden somewhere. It is also wrong to assume that The Truth is always to be found in government archives. Actually many files are written by people with axes to grind or things to hide. Zero^talk 01:02, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Ok, anyway, there is no reasonable reason to remove a template asking for better sources (that implicitly contribute to improvement of the article), it is indeed highly controversial amongst historians. Could you show, an IDF files that prove explicitly that killings occurred in numerous Arab villages ? This is why adding a template <better source> is needed. First, the actual source, Esber 2009, p.356 is not even reliable. This discussion about adding or not, a template, allow to understand the severity of the situation. Secondly, the article is clearly politically-oriented. Almost, All the sources are made of, Benny Morris, Pappé, Esber and Khalidi. Again, I am not a "fan" of old and cranky historians. but, this is too much "neutrality" for me.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 03:31, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like you need to go to wp:RSN then.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't need to show you any files. That's what we have secondary sources for. Look here, page 481. All of the citations on that page are to Israeli archives. There are more quotations from the documents in the footnotes (page 500 if you can see it). You actually need to do some reading; you don't have a case here. Zero^talk 04:17, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

He himself admitted that he did not had access to many important files. But why are you talking about morris now? Where are the criticsm of "new historian/arab narrative"?[4]. There is many historians, not just Morris, or "the political-historian group" praised by those who wrote this article.

."I don't need to show you any files.". Is not a valuable argument. How could you claim that the IdF files prove the existence of massacres, while you keep refusing to show up evidences to back up your claim!The template is about the Esber source named "Esber 2009, p. 356". --... Point by point ... (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no reason to leave a template asking for better sources given the source is reliable. (And everybody who has read books on the topic knows these archives were opened to researchers in the eighties.) Pluto2012 (talk) 04:45, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I have already answer to this. The archives? Wich archives. This is not serious. I don't have to argue about nonsense with somebody who ignore blatantly my arguments.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

As soon as, you are not persuaded by my arguments. As soon as you ignore them. Your comments "does not deserve serious attention or reply". Upon thus far, I will do absolutely nothing.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

That's not what's been said. They have argued that this source is a reliable source and as such there is no need for the template. That's pretty simple to understand. Now WP:RSN the reliable sources noticeboard is a location you can try to get a consensus that this is not a reliable source. The consensus as it stands is that this source is a reliable source.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:01, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I am not interested he can proclaim loudly that the source is reliable, it doesn't change anything. Does the Israel archives confirm any massacre? No, therefore this is unacceptable and I guess by reading books, not just - Pappé or Finkelstein - he knows it too.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 05:11, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Take it to WP:RSN or drop the stick.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:27, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Look, this debate about adding a template is exciting. You should do it yourself.

--... Point by point ... (talk) 06:20, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:RSN is not a template. It is the reliable sources noticeboard.You need a concensus for your change, that's a simple enough matter. Two people here suggest that the source is reliable, you suggest it's not. You can either drop the stick or do something to get a consensus. I'll remind you that this article is under WP:ARBPIA sanctions that you have already been notified about on your talk page. Your failure or refusal to get the point is becoming disruptive. Drop the stick or move on o an action that can result in a consensus for your changes, suggest as going to Reliable source noticeboard.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:31, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

In a case study Benny Morris writes:

Few such documents have surfaced in Israel’s archives during the past fifty years, partly because soldiers and officers who committed atrocities rarely left written descriptions behind, partly because those that do exist are mostly deposited in the IDF Archive, where internal censors make sure that documents explicitly pertaining to massacres or expulsions never see the light of day. But occasionally slips occur.

Pluto2012 (talk) 05:50, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Palestine Post bombing

some confusion over the number of people killed which I will check before adding to the list. Also it is not clear that all the victims here, as well as at the Agency and Ben Yehudi where Jewish. Padres Hana (talk) 10:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Milstein's book (vol 3, p106) says 20 were injured and one (named as Chaim Ferber) died later of injuries. There is a list of the injured, all Jewish names. The Palestine Post on Feb 2-3 also says 20 injured, and reported "Haim Farber"'s death on Feb 3. Milstein also has other information rarely mentioned, such as that the building contained a Haganah arms cache and other military targets were nearby. Zero^talk 22:52, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 April 2018

Change 'Kfar Etzion massacre where around 120-150 defenders' to 'Kfar Etzion massacre where around 120-150 residents,' the specifics are debated but multiple sources have confirmed people who were hiding weaponless or had surrendered were murdered. 68.34.29.140 (talk) 20:58, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. L293D (☎ • ✎) 22:02, 6 April 2018 (UTC)