Jump to content

Talk:Killing of Sonya Massey

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She Flung the Boiling Water Towards the Officers

[edit]

I realize that independent research isn't allowed, but is there no news publication that has reported that the officer opened fire because she attempted to attack them with boiling water? It's very relevant information to the article, but I don't have a source to cite beyond that it's visible from the second body cam. If someone can find an appropriate citation, please add this information to the article.

If you go frame-by-frame at 28:22 in the video released on the Illinois State Police YouTube channel, for exactly one frame you can clearly see Mrs. Massey attempt to use the boiling water to assault the police. It saddens me that the article currently illustrates such an inaccurate version of the events by omitting this major detail, and I'm eager for it to more comprehensively describe the killing, but I know rules are rules. Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 08:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess there is one https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/body-camera-sheriffs-deputy-shooting-woman/ source. But I am not entirely sure about adding that detail to the article. NothingMoreThanThis (talk) 12:45, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
> ... clearly see Mrs. Massey attempt to use the boiling water to assault the police
That is too strong of an assertion to make without substantiation. If it were so "clearly" seen, we'd expect multiple independent sources to also make this observation.
I also do not think that frame of video is as clear as you say. There's an instant where she's holding the pot vertically above her head with one hand such that the bottom of the pot is visible to the body cam. I don't think that necessary means she's mid-throw. I'd be more easily convinced that Massey was showing she'd already emptied the pot. 73.15.163.92 (talk) 20:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. War (talk) 03:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current source for the claim that Massey threw the pot of water at Grayson is a WordPress blog which describes the incident subjectively. The description includes a great deal of speculation, uses unclear language, and leaves out parts of the interaction that provide context. Crucially, it does not claim that Massey threw the pot despite placing a great deal of blame on her for the incident.
Have you seen Sean Grayson's bodycam video? Do you know how to change the speed on videos? The blogger transcribed the event using both bodycam videos and was able to observe Massey standing with pot in hand, the steam rising from the chair and floor after she tossed the water at Grayson, the wet floor that the unidentified deputy walked across to try to stop the bleeding, and the pot that he removed from beside her body. ExistentialBliss (talk) 02:17, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The blogger's previous post details how YouTube removed her video titled "White Race = Artificial Intelligence AI w/ Superpower of Grand Illusionist Satan". Other posts are about COVID-19 being a bioweapon, psychiatrists facilitating demonic possession, and other a range of conspiratorial beliefs.
What does the blogger's other articles have to do with the fact that Sean Grayson's actual bodycam video, if you slow down the speed, shows Sonya Massey quickly standing with the pot and the steam rising near Grayson where the water fell? Blogger transcribed from both bodycam videos. The human mind is a scary thing. You show it a truth it doesn't want to see and it starts reaching for irrelevant information, anything to try to disprove it. ExistentialBliss (talk) 02:27, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like you're very close to the blogger and that might be influencing your view of their credibility. Spifferella (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm new to editing Wikipedia and not entirely confident editing an article of this nature but this is clearly not a reliable source and even if it were it still doesn't support the claim being made. I'd appreciate it if someone could help correct this. Spifferella (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Uchiha Itachi 25: - before you made this post, I'm the editor who added CBS News reported that footage of the shooting showed that "Massey may be holding the pot of water above her head right before the shots are fired. - this was the best description that I could find from a reliable source at the time. Discussing the event itself, since the second video camera has no sound, how do we know what came first - did Massey throw the pot first, or was it Grayson who shot first, causing Massey to release the pot she had lifted up? Perhaps this is why reliable sources do not assert that she threw the pot. Meanwhile, NothingMoreThanThis - are you referring to the quote While unclear due to an obstructed view, the pot of water hit the ground very close to when shots rang out.? This is quite vague to me. starship.paint (RUN) 13:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Steam rises from the cushioned chair seat close to Grayson after the content of the pot doesn't simply stream on the floor but is hurled toward him. You have to slow down the videos, and there are two bodycams.This misinformation being actively promoted on this Wikipedia page by users deleting facts could help lead to a riot, with people who don't know how to do research changing content to make it seem as though Grayson shot Massey "for no reason." ExistentialBliss (talk) 04:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is WP:OR and nonsense. The pot was not hurled. Grayson shouts at Massey to "drop the fucking pot" after he has shot her and she has fallen to the ground.[2] She died with the pot. WWGB (talk) 04:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They can't read carefully either. I said the CONTENT of the pot was hurled. ExistentialBliss (talk) 05:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, the pot is seen overturned on the black chair in front of Grayson after the shooting. Smokerton (talk) 02:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Seen" by whom? You, or a reliable source? WWGB (talk) 03:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By anyone who plays the video in 0.25x speed or goes frame by frame on Grayson's bodycam Smokerton (talk) 21:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the raw bodycam, from 10:45 to 10:49 you can see the pot on the chair with steam rising up through the chair Smokerton (talk) 14:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No there are two body cams. You have not seen the second one, read the entry here in talk entitled:
"There are two body cameras, the one all over the news leaves out the water throw" Central16 (talk) 09:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No she doesn't fling the pot. There is no flinging motion. I've watched it dozens of times.
Instead she raises her hands above her head, which you are supposed to do, when police is pointing a gun at you. Worstbull (talk) 12:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No there are two body cams. You have not seen the second one, read the entry here in talk entitled:
"There are two body cameras, the one all over the news leaves out the water throw" Central16 (talk) 09:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No she doesn't fling the pot. There is no flinging motion. I've watched X60A7941G dozens of times.
Instead she raises her hands above her head, which you are supposed to do, when police is pointing a gun at you. Worstbull (talk) 20:50, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely not supposed to suddenly stand up from a crouching position while holding a pot of boiling water when police are pointing guns at you.🤣 Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 12:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The video you refer to showing the water throw is Sean Grayson's body camera # X60A7941G about 9 minutes long. But the one all over the news is the longer one from the unidentified deputy # X60A83691. In that one the officers arms obscure the view when after she drops down out of view behind the counter. But only in the much less seen body camera # X60A7941G do we see as Grayson gets closer, Massey pops up suddenly holding the pot above her and thrusting it outward and in this springing motion turns sideways. I suppose the news thought the longer one must be better than the shorter one before it became realized that only in the shorter one could you see Massey pop up again with the pot. Central16 (talk) 09:50, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No she doesn't fling the pot. There is no flinging motion. I've watched the body cam video in question (X60A7941G) dozens of times.
Instead she raises her hands above her head, which you are supposed to do, when police is pointing a gun at you. Worstbull (talk) 20:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On body cam 1 (X60A83691) we can see raises her hands and then drops to the floor of her own volition in what is probably a squatting position. Then she is out of view of the police. The police come closer to see where she is. At this point the officers arms block the view, Grayson says "drop the pot" then they shoot and kill her. They were only able to shoot her because after she crouched down behind the counter she stood back up again and was again in their line of fire. On body cam 2 (X60A7941G) the cops arms are not blocking this and we can see Sonya Massey spring up from the crouching position with the pot above her head. This is seen in the moving video as well as captured in stills. Central16 (talk) 18:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, she raises her hands above her head, which you are supposed to do, when police is pointing a gun at you.
Besides, if the officers were really afraid of the hot water, why did they storm at her, towards the hot water? They were at a totally safe distance, before they put out their guns and pointed them at Sonya Massey.
Again - she doesn't fling the pot. There is no flinging motion. I've watched the body cam video in question (X60A7941G) dozens of times. She raises her hands - with the pot still in her hands - above her head, as a police officer approaches her at gun point. That's exactly what you are supposed to do.
Stop spreading misinformation, Wikipedia is not for original research. It's better to leave that to the professionals Worstbull (talk) 21:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely not supposed to suddenly stand up from a crouching position while holding a pot of boiling water when police are pointing guns at you. 🤣 Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 12:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Uchiha Itachi 25 your correct thank you finally justice for my mom yes Sonya Massey was my mom I'm her daughter 2600:8805:6118:F200:D860:5999:7775:3E4E (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What? I'm saying your mother clearly attempted to assault the police and was killed in self-defense. Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 12:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are two body cameras, the one all over the news leaves out the water throw

[edit]

Body camera footage of the shooting was released on July 22 and news websites showed the footage of bodycam # X60A83691 from the unidentified deputy's bodycam. Sean Grayson did not turn on his body cam (# X60A7941G) until just after the shooting. However body cameras always record video and they also retain several seconds of the video prior to being activated. While Grayson's bodycam did not retain footage of the investigation leading up to the shooting it did retain the shooting itself few seconds before it as well as at least 8 minutes after it. After Massey had squatted down behind the counter and out of the officers view, Grayson then moved closer. On the unidentified deputy's bodycam what happens next is briefly blocked from view by the officers arms which are extended forward holding their guns but on Grayson's bodycam (X60A7941G) Sonya Massey can be seen standing up suddenly with a pot and in an arcing motion above her head turned the pot sideways and outward. One can see the pot with handle being held by Massey above her head and coming into a sideways position. At this point the gun shots are heard and hit Massey in her head. Moments later one of the things Grayson says to the other deputy is "dude I'm not taking fucking boiling water to the fucking head and look, it fucking came right to our feet too."[1][2] Central16 (talk) 09:29, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No she doesn't fling the pot. There is no "arcing" motion. I've watched X60A7941G dozens of times.
Instead she raises her hands above her head, which you are supposed to do, when police is pointing a gun at you. Stop spreading misinformation, Wikipedia is not for original research. It's better to leave that to the professionals. Worstbull (talk) 20:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can even see the water on the ground near the officer's feet at the end. Why do you believe the pot rotated to face the officers? You are absolutely not supposed to suddenly stand up from a crouching position while holding a pot of boiling water when police are pointing guns at you. Things must be very different over there in England. You stop spreading misinformation, and perhaps check that your eyesight is still well if you can't see the water on the ground nor the pot raised above her head. Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 12:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Bodycam Footage of Deputy Shooting Sonya Massey in Springfield, Illinois" (video). PoliceActivity. July 22, 2024. Event occurs at 10:30.
  2. ^ "Woman Killed By 'Rebuked' DUI Offender Deputy After Calling 911". Dr.Todd Grande. Event occurs at 5:04.

Broken car windows

[edit]

Reference 11 (CBS story) notes that the car in the driveway had broken windows, but the Wikipedia article does not. This seems like relevant context as it may provide a reason for Massey’s 911 call, and it might have served to reassure the responding officers that Massey was behaving in a logical manner. 2601:14D:4C02:36F0:99F1:C0BA:C083:75D8 (talk) 14:01, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Killing_of_Sonya_Massey&oldid=1256559550"