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Archive 1

Presumption of Innocence

This article was / is quite charged as it is, so I made few edits to highlight that the person currently accused of this crime is still a suspect and has not been convicted yet. I think it is important to use the right terms in case this person is found innocent. Reparare (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Is totally understandable! Thanks for saying it and correcting that in the article! TheFlawlessKing (talk) 23:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

"White"

I think it's inappropriate to lead with "Laken Riley, a White 22-year old nursing student". Her killing is described as a "crime of opportunity". Her race has nothing to do with her murder. If I'm wrong, let's talk about why it's relevant here and reach consensus. Thesixthstaff (talk) 18:39, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I think all interracial crimes should have the races of both parties mentioned. The Murder of George Floyd article prominently mentions race, despite the accused party never mentioning the race of the victim. AppGoo0011 (talk) 18:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
The George Floyd case prominently mentions race because the aftermath is directly tied to the race of the victim. The controversy here is connected to the immigration status of the suspect, not the race of the victim. In addition, the mention of her race is unsourced - it's giving original research. If it were relevant to the case, it would be mentioned in the coverage. Thesixthstaff (talk) 18:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Fine then. How about "American?" She was a citizen. There should be some descriptor for her, since the accused already has "Venezuelan." AppGoo0011 (talk) 18:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
"American" is fine, imo. Most biographical articles start with nationality. Thesixthstaff (talk) 19:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Per MOS:ETHNICITY there's no need to mention skin colour in the lead unless it's an especially prominent part of coverage. Given it's not, there's really no argument for including "white" in the lead and constantly inserting it is disruptive. XeCyranium (talk) 19:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I didn't argue for including "white" in the lead. I argued for including "White" in the lead. Please don't misquote me. AppGoo0011 (talk) 19:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
There is no reason to include white, White, whiTe, WhitE or any other variation. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
That's your opinion. I maintain that it is relevant to the article, but I am willing to accept "American" as an intermediate until a proper source is cited to include "White." AppGoo0011 (talk) 20:20, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
It's not about finding "a" source that says she was white, for it to be due in the lead sentence it would need to be mentioned in a large proportion of reliable sources covering the topic. XeCyranium (talk) 02:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Nature of assault

The current version of this article says that Laken Riley was killed by blunt force trauma, but didn't law enforcement announce that there was also evidence that she had been sexually assaulted? If so, why not mention that fact in the article, in an effort to be more properly encyclopedic? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 01:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I would guess it's because no one has found a reliable published source for that information. Joyous! Noise! 02:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Undue emphasis?

Why is there so much obsession about his status? (Which, of course, seems to help one party's propaganda... when, in reality, as it seems many forgot, all kinds of people commit crimes, regardless of status...) As it is it seems to imply that natives' murders would be acceptable... I mean, there's usually barely a mention of their nationality, as if that isn't relevant at all in their case... and, then, with the 'see also' listing others, as if they have anything at all in common beyond bureaucratic paperwork? Even age would be more statistically relevant (as e.g. more shooters happen to be younger), but it's not like there's any articles that have 'see also' filled with other shooters of the same age... it doesn't seem at all encyclopedic to me... 2A02:29E2:19:2A:E9D:92FF:FEC8:1092 (talk) 12:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Because the only reason this murder is notable is because it was committed by an illegal immigrant. We wouldn't have an article if a random US citizen killed another one as that happens every day. In my opinion, his status can be highlighted even more --FMSky (talk) 12:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
And that was the IP's point. Some of the media are focused on crimes committed by immigrants. About 20,000 homicides per year are committed in the US. How many hit the front page of a paper like the New York Post? But a crime by an immigrant will splash across the front page, be discussed on multiple shows for multiple days on Fox, and included in Trump's picture of immigrants as murderers; even though the FBI says immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than citizens. Pushing this is clear racism. O3000, Ret. (talk) 13:22, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
I think the way its currently worded is fine. Lead is there to establish notability so its necessary to include --FMSky (talk) 13:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:BLPCRIME?

I'm concerned about how this article currently approaches the identification of the suspect, especially the part mentioning his place of residence and the repeated mentions of his immigration status. The suspect has not been convicted (the trial hasn't even been scheduled), and the language used to describe him is quite charged. He is not a public figure. Thesixthstaff (talk) 20:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

One of the reasons this murder is making such big news (and hence, worthy of a Wikipedia article,) is because of the immigration status of the suspect. It's necessary. AppGoo0011 (talk) 13:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
See WP:SOAPBOX and WP:NOTSCANDAL. It is important for Wikipedia to maintain a neutral point of view. I agree with the User:Thesixthstaff. The article is written in a charged and accusatory manner. Editor510 drop us a line, mate 16:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Nothing in this article violates anything within the cited rules. NOTSCANDAL specifically concerns internet rumors and gossip that isn’t solid certified information. This article uses reliable sources.
Friedbyrd (talk) 16:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I agree. At the moment, this is potentially libellous. The guy hasn't even submitted a plea yet. Editor510 drop us a line, mate 16:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
From my quick reading of the article, I can find no actual instances that would violate any Wikipedia rule regarding an ongoing case. The alleged murderer is referred to as such and as a suspect, not the convicted killer. You not liking the fact that his status as an illegal immigrant is mentioned is irrelevant though.
Friedbyrd (talk) 16:45, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi! This article is connected with current events, and thus has been updated significantly (over 100 times!) since yesterday, when I initially commented. At the time of my comment, this [1] was the current rev. I took issue with phrasing like this:
"The murder sparked a debate over immigration in United States, after U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) confirmed that Ibarra is a Venezuelan illegal immigrant who is not a U.S. citizen and was caught crossing the border but released back into the United States."
, which was frankly overkill in conjunction with the three or four other mentions of his immigration status along with his full name, age, and the (admittedly general) location of his residence. The fact that he is undocumented is relevant to the case. His name is not (see WP:ONEEVENT). I wouldn't have any issue if his name was omitted.
The rev as of this comment has addressed some of these issues. Thesixthstaff (talk) 18:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Hello! I agree with some points, such as that the mention of the suspect's immigration status should only necessary to mention it once or twice at most (not four or five times). Also about not blaming the suspect for the killing yet, I agree too. (my mistake was classifying him as guilty or perpetuator when no trial or conviction has yet been carried out, for that I apologize. :(), and on two occasions I deleted parts where it said "she was murdered by him", but users still posted it later in the article. TheFlawlessKing (talk) 18:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Just found out about this article and about this thread. I removed the name per WP:BLPNAME, since there hasn't even even a conviction yet. I invite other contributors to review the content and see how much is really needed. Specifically, the claims that he seems to belong to the Tren de Aragua gang apparently come from prosecutors saying that he has related tattoos. Again, WP:BLPCRIME should be minded. I'll be happy to help in whatever I can. Best wishes, --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:03, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Politicization of Laken Riley's Killing

I see there's been much talk about defending the terminology "illegal immigrant", but no discussion regarding the distasteful exploitation of this poor girl's death. When crime subjects are biased in some way and this is discussed in reliable sources, Wiki often makes mention of this in the article (see Missing White Woman Syndrome). Insofar as Laken Riley's killing is concerned, it's notable primarily because of the suspect, not the victim, and the fact it's been politicized by a certain cohort. So far this article mentions political information in the context of the "debate" it's apparently "sparked" about illegal immigration, but nothing is said of the nature of the political biases at play. Sources covering this are available[2][3]

Further, the last section starts with a statement about how this killing occurred amidst a "historic surge" in illegal border crossings (has it been confirmed that suspect got into the US this way?). This is technically true but potentially deceptive. The context that this information should be presented in (and again, we return to the politics of immigration) is that illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit violent crimes than US citizens. There are many, many sources covering this, but most recently NPR discussed this in response to the politicization of LR's murder.[4] MaskedMan411 (talk) 02:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

"Accused" field in infobox

I updated the infobox to remove the suspect's name from the "Accused" field. This is because the field in Template:Infobox civilian attack explicitly instructs not to use names in this field, per Wikipedia:BLPCRIME. I also added a hidden comment explaining this to the field in question. Thesixthstaff (talk) 15:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

This censorship isnt mandatory by that guideline btw, it says "must seriously consider" --FMSky (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
quote from linked infobox:
  • accused – Number of perpetrators charged. Do not list names of people, per WP:BLPCRIME.
Thesixthstaff (talk) 19:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Nvm i got something mixed up, i wanted to respond to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Killing_of_Laken_Riley&diff=1213384174&oldid=1213377234 who removed the suspects name --FMSky (talk) 19:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
@FMSky: Kind regards. I left a response above at #WP:BLPCRIME?. Best wishes, --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I restored the suspect name in the infobox and article body similar to the Shooting of Ralph Yarl which names the suspect. A discussion at WT:BLP came to no consensus on the issue so it seems for the time being it's 100% ok to list Ibarra in the article --24.125.98.89 (talk) 12:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure the comparison is valid though since the shooter in the Ralph Yarl case was formally charged, indicating that the prosecution is convinced they can secure a conviction. In this case, I cannot find a source that actually supports that a prosecutor's office has filed charges (unless in Georgia the police files charges themselves and not a district attorney?) Regards SoWhy 14:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Ibarra is charged with malice murder, felony murder, aggravated battery, aggravated assault, false imprisonment, kidnapping, hindering a 911 call, and concealing the death of another person. Glad that's settled. The same article quotes his wife "We got married so we could join our asylum cases..." but I don't know that we need to mention his sham marriage used to perpetuate an asylum fraud. --24.125.98.89 (talk) 16:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
This is not in relation to naming the suspect in the body of the article, though I also oppose that at least until trial proceedings begin. This is about the infobox, which specifically instructs in ALL cases that the field be used for number accused, not names of individuals. Just because you can find another example where the infobox is used incorrectly doesn't mean that we should align with the incorrect usage. Thesixthstaff (talk) 18:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Ok so the body can have it but the infobox not? That's a weird inconsistency but whatever I'll update the Ralph Yarl article as well then --24.125.98.89 (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Both the body and the infobox should follow Wikipedia:BLPCRIME、which usually errs on the side of not including the name. The infobox specifically shouldn't include the name because of the parameters of the template, separately from that guideline. Again, ideally I think we shouldn't be naming the suspect anywhere in the article until a conviction (or at least until trial proceedings begin), but I'm not going to die on that hill because it's discretionary ("Editors must seriously consider", not "Editors must"), and at this point there's enough coverage about the guy that I'm not as concerned we are jumping the gun. For the infobox, it actually mandates no names. Thesixthstaff (talk) 18:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I appreciate your effort at consistency, your change to the Ralph Yarl article was reverted, I reverted the revert as your reading of the guidance is correct. 24.125.98.89 (talk) 23:58, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Replaced "accused" with "assailant" per [5] --24.125.98.89 (talk) 19:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Augmented Seventh: you reverted my change of accused to assailant stating "this will be discussed" looking forward to your clarification on that item. --24.125.98.89 (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Accused means suspected. Assailant suggests guilt. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply, though you're not @Augmented Seventh: I am just trying to align this article with the shooting of Ralph Yarl surely the rules are the same for both? --24.125.98.89 (talk) 21:07, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
If you wish, you can correct that article if it is indeed the same circumstances. Although I believe in that case he admitted to being the shooter. In any case, another article does such and such is not a good rationale as it is not a policy. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:48, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

"Lincoln Riley" thing

We've had some persistent back-and-forth about whether Biden's mispronunciation of Laken Riley's name should be included in the article, so I feel like we should talk about it. I think if we keep it, we should also include Sen. Barrasso's identical slip-up on Fox News, as covered here. Thesixthstaff (talk) 15:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Of all the current events in the World, a mispronunciation in response to a heckler should get an award for most trivial moment. My guess is this does not pass WP:10Y O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
It was widely covered in sources and is clearly due. It also shows his complete disregard for the victim --FMSky (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
That is an assumption on your part. One you should never state here as it is a BLP violation. Indeed, you may be contributing to any victimization. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
There's little basis for inclusion and that nonsense in Trump's tweet about the "border invasion" myth doesn't belong here either. You guys have turned this article into your own personal political soapbox by selectively citing sources while blithely ignoring numerous other reliable sources describing how this murder was sensationalized by anti-immigrant activists (one other editor so far has raised this issue with links, and there are many more if you look for it). Illegal immigrants have far lower violent crime rates than American citizens, and part of the notability of this subject has to do with the fact that Riley's murder made headlines not merely because she was killed by an "illegal," but because activists made it a point to politicize it. Jonathan f1 (talk) 23:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

It happened, the SOTU is closely watched and very very public, and Biden is president. There is nothing WP:UNDUE about it, it's one line stating fact. Barrasso is not POTUS and was speaking on Fox so not the same thing at all. If Trump mis-pronounces her name I wouldn't oppose including that. --24.125.98.89 (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

At the very least, we don't need to link to Lincoln Riley. Neither Biden nor Barrasso were referring to the football coach. Thesixthstaff (talk) 19:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2024

The title should be “Murder of Laken Riley”, not the killing of. Also her cause of death was blunt force trauma due to failure of leadership to do its duty. 2603:6010:4400:D8B3:EDCA:C8AC:298D:A702 (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2024

I would like to just change a few words in this article, specifically the word "killing" to the more appropriate word "murder", as the term "killing" is far too ambiguous in the case of this article. The death of Laken Riley was an intentional act of murder, and to label it solely as a "killing" is disingenuous, inaccurate, and leaves too much to the readers interpretation. D4NDRUFFD4VE (talk) 00:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  •  Not done: There are multiple people discussing this in a topic above (the one about the language in the article). Please read that discussion and if you want to contribute, comment up there. Gottagotospace (talk) 00:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Illegal vs undocumented

We're already seeing "illegal" vs "undocumented" changes being made. Which is the better version? Let's just go ahead and decide. Joyous! Noise! 17:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

"Illegal" definitely. More accurate. AppGoo0011 (talk) 18:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I think "illegal" is appropriate, as the article on the subject is illegal immigration, not undocumented immigration. However, we definitely should not use "illegal" as a noun (i.e., the suspect is an illegal). Thesixthstaff (talk) 18:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
@Thesixthstaff Illegal immigration and undocumented immigration are the same thing. Zero nuance. Though yes I agree illegal is better. Alexysun (talk) 06:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • We should go with whatever the sources use in their own article voice. The only cited source at the moment says the authorities revealed the next day that they had charged an undocumented immigrant from Venezuela, so unless we have a better source we have to go with that. More importantly, though, we cannot say "entered the country illegally" unless we have a source unambiguously stating that in the article voice; and if we do, we need to be citing that source specifically to match its context and use. --Aquillion (talk) 20:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
3 seconds googling: https://apnews.com/article/congress-laken-riley-immigration-ibarra-georgia-34b06b0829772900eb55c123fe151845 "Jose Ibarra, a Venezuelan man who entered the U.S. illegally"
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