Talk:Khanjali

Gladius?

Doesn't this look remarkably like a roman gladius? 65.247.221.122 18:45, 19 December 2005 (UTC)Erskine

Look at many different weapons. You'll find alot of them look alike in many ways. The looks don't matter; the way it's used and it's location does.

Thank you for didactically elucidating the obvious. However, THIS tool bears more of a resemblance to another tool than normal; hence, my original comment. And yes, looks DO matter because with tools - form follows function...65.247.221.122 15:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Erskine
Thanks you for your comment. I am going to edit this article with more details and better information about "Khanjali" (this is the way it is spelled in Georgian) and I am going to include your opinion in it. I believe that Khanjali (or Kinjal) is a traditionally Georgian weapon, rather than any other parts of Caucasus. However, the clothing and weapons are also used in some northern caucasian tribes. Georgian weapons tend to have a straight shape, like other European swords, when in the neighbour counrties of Georgia, such as Turkey and Azebaijan the weapons are curly, because of the Persian and Ottoman influence. Ancient Romans did not really conquer Georgia, but Pompeious fought a battle outside Tiflis, the capital of Georgia. Once again, thank you for your comment and I will include that in the article I write about "Khanjali".
Sincerely
Sosomk

Article Name

15 years with the wrong name! Probably not a record on Wikipedia, but still disappointing. The article began life with the correct name "kindjal" then give a non-standard title for the completely pov reason that the weapon was claimed by the name changer to be "Georgian". Maybe someone with knowledge of how to justify article name changes, something about the number of rs sources that use the term, can produce the evidence to get it back to Kindjal. 92.4.23.2 (talk) 00:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Kindjal is a russified form of Khanzhal which is a persian word. Lemabeta (talk) 08:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

References to Khanjar and Qama

Given the geographic and linguistic proximity, some discussion going beyond the Caucasus and links to khanjar and qama would be appropriate.

Remove Georgian Centric Edits

The old article was far too Georgian centric and written by people who clearly learned about Caucasian arms through pop history journal articles.

This dagger is not just Georgian, it was used everywhere in the Caucasus. In academic literature and in the collecting world, it goes by the name Kindjal which is what needs to be used. I intend to greatly expand the article in the future detailing all the styles (Including exclusively Georgian ones) of Kindjals, but since the article only deals with the Tbilisi style at the moment the correct information needs to be presented, ie the industry was dominated almost exclusively by Armenians and Dagestanis, with very few Georgians being involved in it (In Tbilisi, Western Georgia was an entirely different story). Wrobeli (talk) 02:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I am reverting the changes until the sources of each claim are provided. What you are doing is called vandalism, deleting and changing a sourced material. Lemabeta (talk) 12:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Your claims sir are the ones that are unsourced or rely on very dubious sources. Everything I added to the article was perfectly referenced to Arms and Armor of Caucasus which is the most modern and best book on Caucasian weaponry. You are adding dubious claims, like calling the Kindjal "A Georgian Dagger" despite it being used everywhere in the Caucasus.

The article focuses on the Tbilisi style. It is a fact backed up by all evidence that very very few Georgians worked in Tbilisi as dagger makers, not until the late 19th century anyway. In general Georgians back then were soldiers, nobles, and peasants rather than Artisans. If you want to dispute my claims, please provide evidence for yourself. Wrobeli (talk) 20:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

@Wrobeli, you seem to be new to Wikipedia. Rules of Wikipedia are to first discuss and then we make changes together. Your claim that Giorgi Elizarashvili was Geurk Eliarov is unsourced, moreover you deleted sourced material once again of a Khanjali found in Georgia dating 3rd century BC. Moreover, the first picture is registered in wikipedia images as Georgian Khanjali so changing it to Ottoman Kindjal is wrong. Please discuss it here what changes you want to make and provide sources. I am not a nationalist of any nation, i am trying to lead you to follow guidelines of Wikipedia. I am reverting changes and please cooperate with me or i will have to report you, which i don't want to do. This is the last warning discuss the issues you have here in the talk page. Lemabeta (talk) 16:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Lemabeta, that user has been here as long as you. Please don't shout, in all-caps, in your edit summaries. All the peer-reviewed sources I've seen (and I've seen more than just the two I added) claim it's Caucasian--though the first one says "Georgia and the Caucusus", but that's certainly not enough to call it Georgian. No, rules of Wikipedia don't state an edit has to be discussed first. Wrobeli, the book you mention is not available to me so I can't speak on that. What I can say is that the sourcing I found in this article is atrocious. Both of you will have to come with stronger sourcing than those websites--I know, Wrobeli, you're working on it. Lemabeta, that the description in Wikimedia Commons says "Georgia" really means nothing: that's just what the uploader called it. Drmies (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

BTW, there is a collection of kindjars in the Metropolitan Museumm of Art and JSTOR has a bunch of those images (for instance https://www.jstor.org/stable/community.18333198 ); I looked at two of them and they're all marked as "Caucasus". So we also have a pretty good argument of changing the name of the article, esp. since JSTOR offers only a few hits for "khanjali", and not in the best of articles. Drmies (talk) 17:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell what this, by Kiziria Vakhtang, is supposed to be. It's not neutrally written, there is no real title (besides "Dashna"), there is no publication information--it seems like something that someone wrote up but never published. Drmies (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Geurk Eliarov is his name attested in history and in all non-Georgian academic literature. See Arms and Armor of Caucasus by Rivkin, Oruzhe Narodov Kavkaza by Astvatsaturyan for authoritative academic sources confirming this. There are NO Kindjals from Georgia dating back to the 3rd century BC, this is pure and utter nonsense. There were straight daggers, but these looked different and were not Kindjals. Very similar daggers were being used all around the world in the bronze age. Are we to say the ancient inhabitants of Great Britain used Kindjals? Kindjals only originated in the 18th century, prior to this Caucasians tucked Persian and Ottoman style curved Khanjar daggers into their belts. See my source in the authoritative Arms and Armor of Caucasus by Kirill Rivikin, p. 241. this is confirmed by much study.

Wikipedia Images is not immune from inaccuracy. That is an Ottoman style Kindjal, such red coral decoration is typical of the Ottoman empire and seen extensively on Yatagans produced there. That type of decoration was NEVER done on Georgian daggers. If you want to put a Georgian dagger in the lead image ok, I have no issue with that. But please put an actual Georgian dagger.

I am more than happy to expand this article to talk about all the regional variations of Georgian daggers, because there are quite a few. But before I can do that, the information here needs to be presented authentically. Namely, Kindjals are a lot newer than nationalist literature assumes, Geurk Eliarovs ethnicity is in dispute which is why the neutral Russian name needs to be used, and that very few Georgians worked in dagger production in Tbilisi or in what is known as the "Tbilisi Style" (Armenian jewelers from other Caucasian cities such as Shemakha, Shushi, Baku, etc worked in the same style). Wrobeli (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The ethnicity of Eliarashvili/Elizarashvilo family isnt disputed. They are a noble Aznauri family from Kartli. After Russian Empire had annexed Georgia, Georgian nobility names were changed into Russified forms of their last names. But this article needs better sources i agree with that. Lemabeta (talk) 05:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)