Talk:Kfar Shaul

Speedy request

I object to this being speedied. It is currently directed to the Kfar Shaul Mental Health Center. "Kfar Shaul" is often used as a shorthand for the hospital. If it really is a separate neighborhood in its own right, Ynhockey could write a stub for it, rather than asking that the redirect be deleted. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 16:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I will create a short stub as you requested, although this should not be a condition for deleting redirects which points to something clearly not synonymous. It's true that today the words Kfar Shaul are mostly associated with the hospital, but it can also refer to a residential neighborhood next to the hospital. I am writing the article now. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Please make sure you use secondary sources that clearly state it is a neighborhood in its own right, because other sources indicate it isn't. No original research with maps, please. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Your only source seems to be the material from Vilnai, which is in Hebrew. Can you post here what it says, please? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs}

Also, the map isn't showing on my browser, and your other source seems to be saying Kfar Shaul no longer exists, is that right? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually SV, a map is a valid source. It's interesting that the Israeli government considers it a neighborhood, but the Jerusalem municipality says that it's part of Givat Shaul. Anyway, the article is mainly based on a secondary source from 1976, when it was clearly a separate neighborhood, and Har Nof didn't exist. It does appear that today it is officially part of the larger Givat Shaul, however, that does not prevent it from also being a neighborhood and having a Wikipedia article. For example, Mattersdorf is part of Kiryat Sheva Kehilot, and there's also one neighborhood (Nachlaot) encompassing Zikhron Yosef, Ohel Moshe, Mazkeret Moshe, Nahalat Zion, etc., which are fairly well-known Jerusalem neighborhoods. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:37, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S. It was not my idea to create this article in the first place, so if you want to merge it, you have my full agreement to merge into Givat Shaul and redirecting there, based on the Jerusalem municipality (the body that has the final say about what is a neighborhood and what isn't). —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

P.P.S. There are enough fairly prominent maps that the neighborhood appears on separately, if you're interested. One is Google Maps, and another is Mapa's maps, which are by far the most widely-used offline maps in Israel (also officially used by the government here, although you won't be able to load it either). —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Putting maps aside, do you have a secondary source that says this is a neighborhood in its own right, and can you please produce the English translation I requested, per V? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The Ariel Encyclopedia says:

Kefar-Shaul – a suburb in Western Jerusalem, near Givat Shaul. Both of them are named after the Rabbi Shaul Elyashar, also named Yisha-Brakha (?), the chief Sephardic Rabbi of Rishon LeZion. [Kfar Shaul] is located within the boundaries of an abandoned Arab village called Deir Yassin. In Kfar Shaul is an institution for the mentally-ill. It is located about 790 m above sea level.

Mitzpe Nof – a peak adjacent to Kfar Shaul. About 808 m above sea level. From it an outlook on the nearby mountainous locations. On [Kfar Shaul]'s heights is the Revida (Rabida?) Stream coming from Jerusalem, goes through the Jerusalem Forest, to the Sorek Stream, which continues west to the Judean Mountains and the Mediterranean Sea. From Kfar Shaul two roads go to the center of Jerusalem: One – through the Industrial Zone, and the other – through a field that was used for landing airplanes in the War of Independence in Jerusalem. See also: Givat Shaul, Deir Yassin, Revida.

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. What is the year of the entry? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 19:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It says in the footnote. 1976. As I said before, I could not find any non-map evidence that this is a separate neighborhood today, but I consider maps to be reliable sources for locations of places (in fact, the most reliable ones). Again, if you want to merge this into the article Givat Shaul based on your general distrust of maps, feel free to do so. However, the page should not redirect to the mental hospital article. Furthermore, if you do not wish to merge, feel free to leave a hatnote in this article saying 'see also: Kfar Shaul Mental Health Center', or something. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, if it's 1976, the chances are high that the other sources are right, and that there is no such place nowadays. The term "Kfar Shaul" is used only for the psychiatric hospital. Can you show an example of its being currently used to refer to anything else? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, you are ignoring three important points:

1. Maps are fine as sources
2. Even if you are right (you have not provided a single source for your claims either, despite a fact tag in the article), there is no requirement for this to be a current individual neighborhood. We have several articles about Jerusalem neighborhoods that have been absorbed into greater neighborhoods, and of course we have plenty of articles about historical locations which no longer exist. Chronology does not decide everything; would you redirect Deir Yassin to Operation Deir Yassin because it came later?
3. I have agreed to merge this article into Givat Shaul, if it's so important to you

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you address the issue I raised? Every source I can find uses the phrase "Kfar Shaul" to refer to the hospital because the neighborhood no longer exists. Do you have a source that uses it (currently) in any other way? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 21:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The answer is yes. I have at least three maps, one of which clearly states in the index: Kfar Shaul, Neighborhood. Now will you address the issues I raised? —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

No more games with maps, please. Please show any modern secondary source at all, even a poor one, that refers to Kfar Shaul as something other than the hospital. If you can't find one, I intend to redirect this, so please focus on that. There is no point in going back and forth, which wastes our time, mine and yours. We base articles on secondary sources, per the policies, and that is what I am requesting. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Outdent
SV, please stop this practice of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. If you have nothing to reply to my points with, please just stop commenting on this talk, which will save us both time. Otherwise, please reply to my comments in a WP:CIVIL manner. It is not my fault you don't like maps. Is there a Wikipedia policy/guideline that says that all maps are unreliable, especially ones published by reliable publishers? Is there one that implies this? We have a template for this kind of stuff. Don't think maps are reliable? Write a draft guideline and create a policy RfC. You also ignore my other proposal about Givat Shaul? You know what? For the sake of compromise I am offering another one which would be acceptable to me: This will become a disambiguation page. However, I prefer keeping or merging into Givat Shaul. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I have already explained the problem to you. The Kfar Shaul Mental Health Center started life as the "Kfar Shaul psychiatric working village," using the village of Deir Yassin. Therefore, any reference to Kfar Shaul on maps might be a reference to the hospital/psychiatric village. That is why looking at maps is pointless. Your interpretations of them are OR.

What you need to show is a secondary source that uses the expression "Kfar Shaul" to refer to a neighborhood -- a real neighborhood with real people living in it, not psychiatrists and their patients as part of the hospital complex/village. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

But he's already done that - with 2 references, the Ariel geographical encyclopedia (which he has xlated from the Hebrew, above), the Jerusalem municipal web site, which I'll be happy to translate for you, if you'd like Hadashot Livkarim (talk) 01:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The Ariel reference is from 1976, and the way it is worded does not preclude it being the psychiatric working village. It says, "a suburb in Western Jerusalem, near Givat Shaul ... located within the boundaries of an abandoned Arab village called Deir Yassin. In Kfar Shaul is an institution for the mentally-ill."

What we need is a reliable secondary source who makes it clear (really clear) that this is or was a real neighborhood, and not just the hospital complex, or what the doctors called the "psychiatric working village." I'd appreciate it very much if you would translte the municipal website, thank you. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The publication date of the Ariel source is not relevant, and no, the way it is worded makes it clear, really clear that it is a "suburb", whose boundaries include the hospital. Hadashot Livkarim (talk) 02:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The muni cite (2nd one) says "In its [Deir Yassin's] abandoned houses the psychiatric hospital "Givat Shaul" was established. Kfar Shaul was established adjacent to it, and over the years it [Kfar Shaul] was absorbed into the neighborhood of Givat Shaul. " Hadashot Livkarim (talk) 02:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. The hospital was never called Givat Shaul, to the best of my knowledge. That was a separate settlement that predated the hospital. There was a Givat Shaul Bet that was built on Deir Yassin, but other sources say that was a neighborhood, not the hospital. So there is a problem with that source right there. If Kfar Shaul was a suburb, and not the psychiatric working village, it should be possible to get demographic information for it, but I've not been able to find any. Is there anything on that site, or elsewhere that you can find?

Also, I'd appreciate it if this could be dicussed in a civil tone, without sarcasm. There is an important historical point at stake here, or I wouldn't be discussing it, and we need to get it right. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Therefore, any reference to Kfar Shaul on maps might be a reference to the hospital/psychiatric village.

Wrong again. As I have pointed out to you in the past, one of the maps I have, made by Mapa which has a near-monopoly on commercial maps in Israel, clearly states (Gold Atlas 2009, p. 333): Kfar Shaul, Neighborhood. It doesn't really get any simpler than this. You have so far failed to provide a single source saying that it's not a neighborhood, or was not one in the past. The only source which actually says anything on the subject is the Jerusalem Municipality, which clearly outlines it today as part of Givat Shaul (according to their official division of neighborhoods), so we can merge there. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Map

I have concerns about the use of this map, given how confusing the issue is already. Some names and roads have been superimposed, so it's not clear what is from the original map dates (and there are two, because two maps were spliced), and what was added. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 21:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It's simply the only free map we have showing Kfar Shaul's location. If you have another one, feel free to replace this one. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Demographics

If Kfar Shaul was only ever the mental health center, we're making fools of Wikipedia by having this page say otherwise. Yan, as you created this page, please find secondary sources that show it was a real neighborhood by finding the demographics. As things stand, every single source I can find for it calls it the Kfar Shaul Government Work Village for Mental Patients, or the Kfar Shaul Psychiatric Working Village, and similar phrases. (e.g. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]) What seems to have happened is that they took over the village of Deir Yassin and used it as a hospital complex/therapeutic community where patients would live and would try to recover by e.g. planting trees, and in another study I saw, creating things out rubble. It was not just another Jerusalem neighborhood. But if I am wrong, please find a source that describes the neighborhood (who lived there, what kinds of dwellings etc). SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 14:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

If you stopped ignoring the sources already provided, you'd find the answer yourself. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

You are being very unhelpful about this. I am asking you one last time to supply a reliable secondary source that shows Kfar Shaul was something other than the psychiatric working village, as all the sources indicate. If it is impossible to find out anything about who lived there, or any demographic information at all, that should tell you something. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 17:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I have spent some time translating the short article from the Ariel Encyclopedia, which is as reliable as a source gets. Read it again, and if you still don't think it makes it clear that, at the very least, it was a neighborhood in 1976, read it again. It is you who are being unhelpful about this; I provided two separate compromise suggestions, which you conveniently sidestepped and ignored. If you continue ignoring them, there's not really any use in repeating what I already said above. At least you could be helpful by actually reading the comments, which I (obviously) didn't post for my own reading pleasure. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Why do you say that Ariel is as reliable as a source gets? And anyway it does not contradict what I'm saying.

As you seem unable or unwilling to find a source that gives some demographic information, I'm going to restore the redirect. I've given you multiple sources above that say this was a psychiatric working village. You can't be serious in claiming there were two villages right next to each other, both called Kfar Shaul, one housing psychiatric patients, and the other housing a group of mysterious people that no one has ever supplied any demographic information for.

If I am wrong, and you're able to find some information about these people, I'll happily go along with maintaining this article. The only thing I care about is accuracy. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

You must be confusing something. What villages? A work village, especially in the Israeli context, is not necessarily a village. See urban kibbutz and youth village. On the other hand, Kfar Shaul, the neighborhood, was always a neighborhood and not a village, as per the multiple sources I provided. I am not obligated to go out of my way to also search for demographic information beyond the ample sources I always provided clearly stating that, at the very list, this neighborhood existed in the past and was later merged with Givat Shaul. Maybe you should look for sources saying that it was never a neighborhood.

However, as long as you ignore my two compromise suggestions outlined at least twice above, your threats to "restore the redirect" are null and void. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The Kfar Shaul village *was* a village because it had been the Deir Yassin village. Cluster of buildings X in 1948, called Deir Yassin = Cluster of buildings X in 1951, now called Kfar Shaul. What is it that is not clear about this?

And you have not produced multiple sources. You have produced one from 1976, which is ambiguous, and of unclear reliability. The rest are maps, which could be showing Kfar Shaul, a real neighborhood, or Kfar Shaul, the psychiatric village. Impossible to tell, so stop waving them around as though they show anything. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I've directed it to a dab page for now. In the meantime, I'll make enquiries to find out whether this ever existed as anything other than the hospital complex. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

In other words, you are saying that Prof. Zev Vilnay and the Jerusalem Municipality are lying? —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:14, 18 June 2009 (UTC)