Talk:Keyboardist

standards for inclusion

I think this page needs standards for inclusion in the notable keyboardists list, or a process for nomination; otherwise, it will grow to include the entirety of List of keyboardists. Thoughts? — brighterorange (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I keep coming back to this article and finding someone's added the keyboard player from whatever band they're into, or they've added their favourite artist who sometimes plays the keyboards, in spite of mainly being a guitarist. I've trimmed the list once again, and tried to leave in only the names that people are most likely to think of when thinking about keyboardists. The likes of Stevie Wonder and Ray Manzarek are a foregone conclusion - you talk about keyboard players, and those will be amongst the first names you think of. You might also think of prog keyboardists like Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson. If you talk about synth players, you might think of the likes of Jean Michel Jarre. Brian Eno and Vangelis, or on the more explicitly dancey side, Vince Clarke, Martin Gore or Hutter and Schneider of Kraftwerk. You might think of jazz keyboardists like Herbie Hancock or Chick Corea. And you would probably, sooner or later, think of Wendy 'Walter' Carlos, whose Switched On Bach was instrumental in popularizing the Moog synthesizer.

I'm a keyboardist, and I could name hundreds of keyboard players past and present, and a hundred more for whom keyboards are their second or even third instrument. But the fact that I know of them doesn't mean they should be here (in fact, it doesn't even necessarily mean they belong in List of keyboardists). I think the criteria for inclusion here should be that the keyboardist in question has been particularly innovative and influential, is a household name (ie, someone a casual listener of music might have heard of), and that, by and large, their keyboard/synth/organ parts are the driving force; the most instantly recognisable part of many of their songs. Personally, I think criteria are redundant as the list really really does not need any more adding to it. More additions should go on the List of keyboardists page. Scanning the actual 'List of keyboardists', there are actually something like 20 red links, and one of those has been listed twice, which just shows the level of indiscrimination and lack of care people apply when adding to lists like this. I've even come to this article and found red links before now. --Stevefarrell 11:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I say take out the list. Aren't you tired of trying to rule it? Most of those names you choose to leave on the list and/or add yourself may be household names to you but not to everyone. In my opinion you are in violation of WP:OWN, and the whole list should just be taken out - all inclusive in the List of keyboardists. Period. Cricket02 00:36, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to what now? There should be a small list of very notable keyboard players included in the article. A very small list. It should have about ten names on it. Since I was the one who decided to edit the list down, I decided to use my own judgement to keep the names that were the most important. I'm not in violation of anything, and if I am, it's only because people keep on coming along and making ludicrous additions to a list that's still about 18 names longer than it should be. There can't possibly be any argument that, say, Stevie Wonder, Herbie Hancock, Jean Michel Jarre, Brian Eno, Ray Manzarek, Keith Emerson and so forth aren't six of the most famous, groundbreaking and influential electronic keyboard players ever, whether you, personally, have heard of them or not. There's no doubt whatseover that these people are incredibly notable, not just as keyboardists but as musicians in general. Brian Eno is highly notable as a producer, for example, his work with Talking Heads and U2; Jean Michel Jarre's elaborate concerts bring in hundreds of thousands of spectators; and you don't even need me to get started on Stevie Wonder, probably one of the most influential solo artists of all time. But, there is quite a bit of doubt as to the notability and influence of, say, Nick Baines of the band Kaiser Chiefs. For a start, the band have only been around (or only been famous) for a couple of years, and only have one album out; most people only know the twelve or so songs from that album. So why should he be in a list of notable keyboardists when he hasn't really done anything and almost certainly hasn't influenced anybody? If you're going to have a list of notable anything, they should actually be notable, and not just 'people who have done this thing'. I was the editor, I edited the list according to my judgement. I take it you've read WP:BOLD as well as WP:OWN. --Stevefarrell 23:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The solution is to use some source -- did Mojo ever publish a list you could reference or did Keyboard Magazine? Something like that.CharlesGillingham 13:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree the list should be short. I think something that would help would be to form the list into prose, using the principle of show, don't tell by explaining why each keyboardist is important. That makes the list more useful, it gives an opportunity for attribution (because there is a statement to cite) and it makes it harder for editors to casually add Johnny Redlink (My Favorite Local Act) because they would also have to explain what stands out about the artist. — brighterorange (talk) 15:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Gender bias and other biases in list?

This is addressed at Stevefarrell. Just for what it's worth - random Wiki user/editor here, and I'm not going to bother to log in to say it, though I will if the discussion goes anywhere - but I'd like to note that other than Ms. Switched-On-Bach there, you have no women on the list. At all. This doesn't mean to say that the list isn't necessarily musically relevant - I'm hardly an arbiter of music performance history - but if I could I'd like to ask what makes Jon Lord and Alan Price so much more worthwhile than Christine McVie, whose keyboard work with Fleetwood Mac was heard by more people than anything The Animals or Deep Purple ever did? I'm a keyboardist as well, and at least at present, when I go sit down at my pair of 88-keys and try to compose something, I'm far more likely to be trying to get at something like her work on Everywhere than I am to go pawing through the Yazoo catalog. Also, it seems like about 75% of your list is British, and that seems a bit statistically odd to me given the prevalence of synthpop bands and just the general influence of keyboards worldwide. While it's hard to deny the influence of the British Invasion, even Gary Numan's own article states that outside of his own country he's often considered a one-hit wonder - I'm not sure anyone in the States or elsewhere is really listening to Cars over and over, here, trying to be the next hot keyboardist. I could make similar statements about some of the other choices on there (not necessarily just the Brits, really). Are you sure this isn't a list more reflective of your own personal heroes rather than contributions to keyboarding as a whole? 76.90.135.239 (talk) 14:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, as I've been saying for something close to two years now, the list in this article is not, never has been, never should be, and never will be an indiscriminate list of everyone who has ever played keyboards in a band or as a solo artist and gained some fame and popularity for doing so. Christine McVie isn't on the list because she is not generally considered to be one of the most influential and important keyboard players of all time, and not because she's a woman or American. Vince Clarke is there because his style of synthesizer playing influenced an entire genre. He might not be the best keyboard player in the world from a technical point of view, but to be quite honest with you, he inspired more people to pick up a synthesizer and join or start a band than Christine McVie did.

The list isn't a reflection on which keyboard players had the most hits. Gary Numan might only have had a couple of hits in the US, and he might be virtually unknown outside of the UK (I don't actually believe that's the case; my understanding is that he has a large and dedicated US fanbase), but another quote from his article is "Numan was one of pop music's first successful synthesizer stars". He was amongst the first rock acts to base his entire act, his entire sound, around synthesizers. Hardly anyone else was doing what he was doing. I can only think of Kraftwerk as doing it before him in the same way (progressive rock and more experimental bands and artists had been using synthesizers for a while, of course; but I mean, nobody had really used synthesizers in the context of simple pop melodies before). Perhaps Fleetwood Mac sells more albums than The Animals, but most people remember the organ solo from House of the Rising Sun. I can't name one single memorable keyboard part from any Fleetwood Mac song. There are no women on the list (except Wendy Carlos, who was a man at the time of her major success) because there aren't really any women keyboardists who have had the kind of wide ranging influence and popularity based on them playing keyboards as the male artists on this list have. You say there should be more women on the list but you yourself only name one. As to your perceived 'British' bias; out of 24 names on the list, ten are American, four are European and ten are British. So there are 10 British acts and 10 American acts. If I remember my maths, that's exactly even. Ten is the same number as ten.

This isn't a list of 'my personal heroes'. I'm probably the only person who edits this article without 'my personal heroes' in mind. It's a list of keyboard players who have mattered most in the history of pop music. There are a good few still on the list who don't need to be, of course I'm aware of that. It needs to be trimmed down to make more sense and be fairer; not have a load of names added to it because they happen to be female or American. --Steve Farrell (talk) 23:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

What you have said here is biased. You are assuming that just because a person is British and male, he will select keyboardists for this list who are also British and male. The language and terms you used are also indirectly racist. I feel myself to be at least somewhat qualified to be an arbiter of music history, and I think this is a very concise list of well-known and innovative keyboardists. There are very few well-known female keyboardists. Christine McVie is well-known, but more for her vocals then her keyboard skills. She is a good keyboardist, but hardly a pioneer. She does not belong on this list. There are quite a lot of famed female pianists, but this is an article about people who play the keyboard. There are also a lot more British and European keyboardists of historical note than there are Americans. This is not due to a personal bias, it is due to the musical culture at the time. If this were a list of guitarists then I am certain that Mr. Farrell would have included a majority of Americans. There are a lot more American keyboardists now, and likely in ten years some of them will be on this list. However, one or two albums is not enough time to become a legend. All of this aside, the list is not biased. Ten of the musicians cited are British, and fourteen are not. This works out to 41.7% British, which is very slightly less than 75%. I am a woman and American, and if there were reason to take offense to this list than I certainly would have. I do, however, take offense to your comment. You really should do your research before you make claims to this effect. If you still believe this to be true even after your research then you should at least be more respectful in your comments. 75.35.112.198 (talk) 23:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

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