Talk:Keven McDonald

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NBA

The subject has stated Corrected some inaccuracies about my career. The original author made a reference to the fact that I never played a game in the NBA. That is not true. Although my NBA career was brief I did play in several games before being released. on another talk page. I am having trouble verifying this claim. Basketball Reference is renowned for their meticulous statistics but they do not have Mr. McDonald on the 1978-79 Seattle SuperSonics Roster. Can anyone else verify? Or perhaps Kmacjdwiki can clarify? Perhaps we are talking about pre-season games. --SVTCobra (talk) 01:35, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps I can help here. I can't speak for today but in the olden days of the 1970's the final rosters would not have been set until all contract negotiations, trades or other transactions (like being released) were finalized. Since I was released before all these were concluded I would not have appeared on the final roster. Kmacjdwiki (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald

I am not going to claim to know about how the NBA works especially not in the 1970s, but doesn't one have to be under contract to appear in an official league game? You did not specify in your answer if these games were preseason games. What I do know is Basketball Reference is very meticulous. Perhaps you remember Ralph Drollinger who was drafted by the Sonics the same year as you. He didn't play any official games for Seattle but managed to get signed by the Mavericks a couple of seasons later and played exactly six games. Basketball Reference have his stats. Also, this source pretty much states you did not make an NBA appearance. So the claim remains unverifiable and cannot be included. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 06:40, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

The 1978–79 NBA season began on October 13, 1978. The Daily Pennsylvanian published on October 2, 1978, this article stating that Lenny Wilkins cut you from the team on September 30, 1978, leaving two just rookies (who also didn't make the team). I shall consider this particular matter closed, but it would be nice if we could expand on your European basketball career. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 07:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello SVT, Keven here. I see you and the other gentlemen have been busy. Given the time constraints I have today I'll attempt to respond to your comments in this section without wandering further into the weeds. So, here we go:

I cannot speak to the accuracy of the sources used to confirm my time in the NBA or why I don't appear on a roster. Nor am I inclined to get into a discussion about whether 40 some odd years ago one must have been under contract to appear in an official league game. Again, I'm not wandering into that wilderness. I'll defer to your confidence in how meticulous these sources are. If Wikipedia feels it's that important to include the statement by the original author that I never appeared in an NBA game then put it in. I maintain my disagreement with the statement but in the course of human history it's really not that important nor does it diminish what I accomplished. Issue closed.

I will not expand on my career in Europe. It was a wonderful experience SVT but perhaps you can appreciate that I don't want to invite another round of endless notices, warnings, condescending remarks or claims of being a money motivated drive-by editor because I didn't prove what color my uniform was. But yes SVT, my time in Europe was great. Issue closed.

Kmacjdwiki (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald

I can indeed appreciate that, Kmacjdwiki, but you wouldn't have to do anything more than mention which team(s) you played for and I would try to find if there are any records out there. And while I touted Baskeball Reference as meticulous it would have been plausible that there was a gap in their database, however, the clincher for me was Penn's own newspaper stating you were released two weeks before the season start. This is not some recreated source, it is an actual scanned copy of that 1978 paper. This is rather overwhelming evidence and in lieu of documents (like box scores from games you played in) which prove it was wrong all those years ago, it shall have to stand. There is no longer a "never played" statement in the article, though it is implied by the mention of you being released. This talk page will always be here when you have more time to evaluate the current state of the article about you. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 16:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello Cobra!

Again, my desire to do anything more than is absolutely necessary on this article has been extinguished. I have spent enormously more time on this than I would ever have imagined. Right now I'm going step away from all of this for a day or two. I want to see how the article shapes up after all this back and forth has had time to settle in. Moving forward I'll direct all my editing questions to you and you alone for reasons I articulated on the "discussion" page. I will await your answer and yours alone regarding how to move forward on any questions I've asked you. This is for two reasons: 1. I won't have to respond to multiple individuals on the same issue and 2. Frankly, some of your colleagues have no clue how to respond to inexperienced, or "rogue" as I was described, editors.

The NBA issue is hereby closed.

Talk to you soon...

Kmacjdwiki (talk) 21:07, 19 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald

User:Kmacjdwiki's edits and why most are not constructive / correct

Stemming from several discussions (1, 2, 3) about Kmacjdwiki's edits to this article he claimed are about himself, the subject Keven McDonald, and which edits he believes are warranted, I am going to state edit-for-edit why most of these should not be accepted. Given that there is so much to unpack here, I will just go top to bottom from the edit diff I provided, beginning with the infobox.

Infobox-related edits

1. There is no reason to de-link Newark, New Jersey from the birth_place field. In fact it goes against Wikipedia's emphasis on relevant linking navigability for readers.
2. There is no reason to move the high_school field down to the bottom of the infobox where it logically doesn't make any sense to be beneath the college field.
3. WikiProjects College Basketball, Basketball, and NBA have a decade-plus long consensus that high schools never have their entire names spelled out because the words "High school" are already listed on the infobox field and are redundant and space-consuming. Infobox "real estate" (so to speak) is at a premium and only the most relevant, non-redundant information should be included (per the aforementioned WikiProjects as well as a site-wide manual of standard style rule).
4. Kmacjdwiki's insistence on spelling out Seton Hall Preparatory School, as well as the removal of the school's city and state that follow, violates the long-standing basketball biography standards set forth by all aforementioned basketball-related WikiProjects. There are thousands, possibly over 10,000, basketball player biographies on the English Wikipedia and all of them strive to have consistent infobox formatting. We will not be making an exception for Keven McDonald's article.
5. The "college" field that Kmacjdwiki continues to vandalize by putting the full school name of University of Pennsylvania and a master's degree (which isn't even a field that exists in Template:Infobox basketball biography) once again violates the basketball WikiProjects' long-standing manual of style, nor are what he's adding correct in so far as the parameter of what "college" means. For basketball player biographies, it is [a] only the college at which the player actually played for the basketball team that gets included, [b] the link goes to the school's corresponding basketball article (not the university's article), and [c] the name of the school is shortened to the school's athletics' common name. Somehow, Kmacjdwiki violated all of these WP:CBBALL manuals of style, and blatantly disregarded wide-ranging basketball player biography consensus from hundreds of active editors spanning well over ten years because he wants to see his edu-ma-cations spelled out and listed in a basketball player infobox. We will not be making an exception for Keven McDonald's article. (For the record, I have no problem with the juris doctor degree info being included in this article, with references, as I agree it's worth mentioning in a "post-basketball" section.)
6. Kmacjdwiki's insistence on including basketball awards and honors from high school and college that have never met WP:CBBALL's standards of inclusion for infoboxes will not be accepted, either (and I'm willing to bet the house he's going to disagree with everything I'm about to say). Nearly all American basketball players who are notable enough for articles on Wikipedia are in their high schools' halls of fame. It is not a defining achievement for these players as far as what constitutes infobox-worthiness. For college, being a three-time all-Big 5 player is nice, but again it's an achievement not infobox-worthy. Much of what Kmacjdwiki has been trying to add would be great (!) awards/honors to be included in prose, in referenced sections on his list of achievements. Per WP:CBBALL and WP:NBA, only significant, notable basketball accomplishments make the cut for infoboxes (such as the Robert V. Geasey Trophy, or being first-team all-conference). In addition, aside from the nit-picking about how Kmacjdwiki used incorrect formatting on so much of this "highlights" section that I don't even want to get into every single one (such as replacing 3× with 3X), I'll just summarize that he doesn't understand in any way what WP:CBBALL is about, and he's getting in his feelings about why his highlights section keeps getting pared down to honors that are actually applicable for an infobox.

General body of article edits

1. I actually do agree with Kmacjdwiki that removing "who is best" in the opening sentence is a stronger opener. Having the sentence start with "is an American former basketball player who is best known for..." flows more smoothly. I went ahead and removed it.
2. For all of the instances that Kmacjdwiki replaced "McDonald" with "Keven" (ex: "Penn improved during McDonald's senior season" → "Penn improved during Keven's senior season"), it is objectively incorrect to do this. Per official AP style writing rules, use only the subject's first and last names the first time s/he is mentioned, and only the second name every time thereafter (sources: [1][2][3][4]... I could continue to link to more, but you get the point). Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such must be written by professional standards. There will be no exceptions made for this article.
3. The issue of including the name of McDonald's real estate company in all caps has been resolved by User:SVTCobra, it appears.
4. It's patently false that there were any spelling errors he claims to have corrected (literally, look at the previous version in this diff and find a single spelling error for me... and no, the defaultsort does not count because "Mcdonald" is correct in how Wikipedia's article-sorting reads these types of last names. So please, point out the spelling errors Kmacjdwiki, I'll wait.) Oh and side note, I find it highly ironic that you sit there and criticize the way the article is written yet you don't know the difference between "edition" and "addition" (ex. 1 ex. 2), and you even spelled a word terribly wrong yourself (optimazation – really??).
5. It's debatable at best that Kmacjdwiki improved the grammar or syntax at all (as he claims), but since that's a matter of opinion and not fact I will just leave the point alone.
6. There is no reason to include a blank external links section, and Kmacjdwiki continuing to re-include it makes no sense. The issue seems to have been resolved and the blank section was removed, however.

Further direct responses to Kmacjdwiki comments

Since the reversions of most of the above edits, Kmacjdwiki has made some comments on talk pages that need to be addressed individually.

1. "Corrected some inaccuracies about my career. The original author made a reference to the fact that I never played a game in the NBA. That is not true. Although my NBA career was brief I did play in several games before being released." I see where this specific issue was raised above in this talk page. By Wikipedia standards, a player is only considered to have played an actual NBA game – and therefore is listed in an NBA team's official all-time roster – if they appear in at minimum one (1) regular season or postseason game. Playing in summer leagues and training camps are equivalent to NBA-sanctioned pick-up games. In other words, they count for literally zero. Tens of thousands of players over the NBA's history have either been drafted, participated in summer leagues, and/or played in training camps without being signed to the team for regular and/or postseason games. All of these players are not, and never will be, considered "NBA players" by anyone's definition except for possibly those players themselves. As such, even though you, Keven, think in your own head that you were once an NBA player, you were not. You even said it yourself: "Since I was released before all these were concluded I would not have appeared on the final roster." The statement in the article that you had such a problem with (which has since been removed anyway, "Following his career at Penn, McDonald was selected in the 1978 NBA Draft by the Seattle SuperSonics as the 42nd overall pick, but never played an NBA game") is unequivocally accurate. Just because you didn't like it doesn't make it untrue.
2. "Let me hasten to add that on one edition I did, in the External Links section, link back to my site to try to get some search engine optimazation (SEO) juice. Once I realized it violated policy it was immediately corrected." You outright admitted to trying to game Wikipedia and drive up web traffic to your personal real estate website. This admission alone should ban you from any further editing, let alone to your own article. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
3. "Second, a quick trip to the internet will confirm all the athletic accomplishments I added to the information box. The one's from Penn, Big 5 and Ivy League are easy to find online. The Seton Hall Prep Hall of Fame award can be found if you Google "Keven McDonald Seton Hall Prep Hall of Fame" you'll be taken to a page that lists the inductees by the year they were inducted. Scroll down to 1987 and you'll see my name. Make sure you spell my first name correctly before Googling. Once again, I added them to the page without embellishment." As long as these accomplishments are included (with references) in a corresponding section on the basketball career, not in the infobox, as I've described infobox-worthy achievements per WP:CBBALL ad nauseum, then that's fine.
4. "I will inform you when I've done as you instructed. I would really like for you to be involved with this since you and Howes seem to be the only ones who can give me specific, helpful and straightforward information. Everyone else seems to only want to wallow in their gatekeeper position." It's because of drive-by editors like you that are this time consuming and demanding that users like User:Chris troutman and me don't want to have to explain the deep recesses of Wikipedia protocols, standards, precedents, rules, and culture. You came in guns blazing to edit your own article and subsequently violated so many tenets and long-standing WikiProject consensuses that it was infinitely easier to revert, warn, and move on. But you keep insisting on knowing literally every single detail about why each keystroke was rejected, and it's exhausting. As Chris troutman and I are concerned, our time as knowledgeable editors is better served on improving articles and content, not WikiLawyering every point to death with new users such as yourself. Yet here I am, providing what might be the most thorough, edit-by-edit rebuttal in the history of this website, so that maybe you get the point.

The bottom line

Due to Kmacjdwiki's hostile editing and insistence on his rogue way of doing things, I have added Keven McDonald to my watchlist. For Keven's awareness, that means that any time an edit is made to this article I will see it. So, I advise against you having the possible notion that if you wait until this blows over that you'll be able to jump back in and make those edits again without being noticed. I'll see them immediately and report you without hesitation. Constructive edits, such as adding a photograph (which I know you're working on getting approved) are totally fine. It's all this other junk I've addressed above that will be grounds for higher warning levels and, potentially, blocks or bans. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

 Comment: I generally agree with SportsGuy789's assessment of the validity of Kmacjdwiki's edits. The most substantial factual claim was the one about playing in the NBA. I think I have laid that to rest in the section above. Ignoring the obvious COI issue, yes, the user was unusually certain he knew the correct way to format things and would insist on his way by continually changing it back and inadvisably making a failed attempt to add parameters to the infobox template. Not knowing what is appropriate for the WP:BIOLEAD or how to add an image. It is basically smorgasbord of top novice Wiki editor mistakes. Now, I know those of us who are concerned with the overall project and dedicate a large portion of our time to keeping an eye on our watch lists rather than edit the page we really want to work on can get frustrated when newbies come in and insist they know best and start messing with an article which had been stable for two years. The easiest and quickest way to deal with it is a quick revert and slap a warning template on the offending user's talk page. However, that is just as much drive-by editing, if not more so, than what Kmacjdwiki was doing. I also feel it was a mischaracterization to call him "hostile" and coming at us with "guns blazing". Aside from the borderline edit-warring, there were no hostile edit summaries (actually there's a dearth of any edit summaries) which often find their way into novice behavior when they get frustrated. I can understand if SportsGuy789 was loath to explain every policy, guideline and standard convention in formatting articles for sports people and why certain awards are not considered noteworthy but others are, but at some point it becomes worth it to write something on a talk page and not rely on a template. Chris troutman was an uninvolved third party and thus ought not be feeling frustration from Kmacjdwiki's edits. That's why I feel it was inappropriate and against the spirit of WP:DONTBITE to pop off in this manner on Julian's talk page. In conclusion, I think we (the long-term Wikipedians) could have handled this better and ultimately wasted less of our collective time. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 12:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

"Chris troutman...ought not be feeling frustration..." I'm a misanthrope; I feel constant frustration with humanity. I sought to explain how it feels for Wikipedia editors dealing with a constant barrage of interference, intoning only that Kmacjdwiki's editing emulated that pattern to his detriment. Chris Troutman (talk) 12:52, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Be that as it may, you intoned a few other things as well, including some about his character. --SVTCobra (talk) 13:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello, Keven McDonald here. I'll attempt to respond to the numerous comments below.

Info Box Related Edits

1. I have no idea if or why Newark, New Jersey should be "de-linked". What I do know is that Newark is my correct place of birth. The original author initially had my place of birth as South Orange, New Jersey. I corrected this years ago when this page first came to my attention. Link it or de-link it, I don't care.

2. A discussion about whether or not the "High School" field should be above or below the "College" field seems somewhat frivolous but intuitively it does seem more logical to put High School above College since one must graduate high school before moving on to college. Just my drive by opinion.

3. I changed Seton Hall Prep to Seton Hall Preparatory School because that is the correct formal name of my high school. A comment is made above that the info box "real estate" is valuable and the words "high school" are redundant because they already appear in the info box field. However, there's no redundancy here because, as I mentioned, it's Seton Hall Preparatory School, not Seton Hall High School. But, it's not a point worth debating. Use Seton Hall Prep if that will avoid another notice.

4. With respect to removing the city and state, I did so because "Seton Hall Preparatory School" and the previous "Seton Hall Prep" were both linked to Seton Hall's Wiki page which gives all pertinent information, including city and state. But if this violates yet another rule then put them back.

5. The "College" field. Contrary to the comment above, I didn't "vandalize" anything. Like with my high school I changed "Penn" to the University of Pennsylvania because that is the formal name of my university. But there's another reason. Here in the states my school is often confused with Penn State University, an entirely different school. I wanted to clarify the distinction. Speaking of vandalism, the commenter above states that I put a Master's degree after the University of Pennsylvania. At no time did I ever claim to have obtained a Master's from Penn. I put "University of Pennsylvania, BA" which denotes a Bachelor of Arts degree, not a Master's. Please read carefully before accusing me of vandalism. Also, I presume the commenter's use of the word "edu-ma-cations" was yet another attempt to be condescending with a whiff of racism.

6. The rest of the relevant comments regarding the information box seem to deal with arcane information box rules and protocols and which athletic achievements are or are not worthy of mention. I will concede that I was not aware of the many information box guidelines prior toadding the other awards. I didn't know that some are more "worthy" than others. They were all important to me and I simply wanted to include those omitted by the original author. I will leave it to you gentlemen to determine which awards are deserving of mention and which are not. Oh, and I promise not to "get in my feelings" about whatever you decide.

General Body of Article Edits

1. Thank you for removing "who is best".

2. With respect to replacing "McDonald" with "Keven". I defer to your rules and the sources you cite above.

3. Yes, the issue of my company name in all caps is resolved. I explained to SVTCobra that I used all caps in the article for consistency. My company name appears in all caps (and bold) on my logo, website, business cards, stationery etc. There was no attempt on my part to "game" Wikipedia, just simple branding consistency gentlemen.

4 "Oh and side note, I find it highly ironic that you sit there and criticize the way the article is written yet you don't know the difference between "edition" and "addition" (ex. 1 ex. 2), and you even spelled a word terribly wrong yourself (optimazation – really??)."

This comment is petty, argumentative and not worth my time. Moving on...

5 "It's debatable at best that Kmacjdwiki improved the grammar or syntax at all (as he claims), but since that's a matter of opinion and not fact I will just leave the point alone."

I too will leave it alone.

6. The next comment deals with the removal of the External Links section to which I have nothing to add.

Further direct responses to Kmacjdwiki comments

1. The first comment deals again with the length of my NBA career and the definition of an NBA game. That issue is resolved.

2. #"Let me hasten to add that on one edition I did, in the External Links section, link back to my site to try to get some search engine optimazation (SEO) juice. Once I realized it violated policy it was immediately corrected." You outright admitted to trying to game Wikipedia and drive up web traffic to your personal real estate website. This admission alone should ban you from any further editing, let alone to your own article. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)"

On the bottom of the article there was an External Links section. Again, not being familiar with your myriad of rules there was nothing to immediately indicate to me that linking to my site was wrong. And, as is correctly stated above, I openly admitted to linking to my site for seo purposes. I've made no attempt to hide that. What I don't admit to is trying to "game" Wikipedia. Had I known of the rule and willfully tried to violate it I could properly be accused of "gaming". But I didn't know the rule. All I saw was the heading "External Links" so I made an external link. When I was made aware that it violated a policy it was corrected.

3. This comment deals again with what is and is not a "worthy" enough athletic accomplishment to be included in the information box. That issue is closed.

4. "It's because of drive-by editors like you that are this time consuming and demanding that users like [User:Chris troutman]] and me don't want to have to explain the deep recesses of Wikipedia protocols, standards, precedents, rules, and culture. You ca[me in guns blazing to edit your own article and subsequently violated so many tenets and long-standing WikiProject consensuses that it was infinitely easier to revert, warn, and move on. But you keep insisting on knowing literally every single detail about why each keystroke was rejected, and it's exhausting. As Chris troutman and I are concerned, our time as knowledgeable editors is better served on improving articles and content, not WikiLawyering every point to death with new users such as yourself. Yet here I am, providing what might be the most thorough, edit-by-edit rebuttal in the history of this website, so that maybe you get the point."

And I'm accused of being hostile? Indeed, I do "get the point" of this comment completely.

The bottom line

1. "Due to Kmacjdwiki's hostile editing and insistence on his rogue way of doing things, I have added Keven McDonald to my watchlist. For Keven's awareness, that means that any time an edit is made to this article I will see it. So, I advise against you having the possible notion that if you wait until this blows over that you'll be able to jump back in and make those edits again without being noticed. I'll see them immediately and report you without hesitation. Constructive edits, such as adding a photograph (which I know you're working on getting approved) are totally fine. It's all this other junk I've addressed above that will be grounds for higher warning levels and, potentially, blocks or bans. SportsGuy789 (talk) 04:25, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't even know where to begin here.

"hostile editing"?

I fail to see how using the correct names of my high school and university, adding some athletic achievements, mentioning I've been to law school and that I run my own company are acts of hostility. I admit that, as a first-time editor, I'm not as familiar with the complete Encyclopedia of Wikipedia Rules as are you gentlemen but none of these edits would be considered "hostile" by any reasonable person.

"rogue way of doing things"?

I guess this refers to the fact that I violated some protocols. Again, I admit to my inexperience with Wikipedia. but "rogue"?

"watchlist"?

Should I be peering out the window looking for men lurking in the shadows? Watchlist?...wow.

"So, I advise against you having the possible notion that if you wait until this blows over that you'll be able to jump back in and make those edits again without being noticed. I'll see them immediately and report you without hesitation."?

First, I have no intention of "waiting for this to blow over" whatever "this" means. I intend to work through this until the article is satisfactory to all involved. Second, my approach going forward will be to explain to SVTCobra any updates or editions I wish to make. He,then, can tell me how or even if what I want to do is possible. His responses to me have been fair, even-handed, professional and without the seemingly necessary resort to insult, condescension or outright derogatory commentary used by others. Even when he says I've done something incorrectly.

"It's all this other junk I've addressed above that will be grounds for higher warning levels and, potentially, blocks or bans."

I'll let this power trip speak for itself.

2. ": Comment: I generally agree with SportsGuy789's assessment of the validity of Kmacjdwiki's edits. The most substantial factual claim was the one about playing in the NBA. I think I have laid that to rest in the section above. Ignoring the obvious COI issue, yes, the user was unusually certain he knew the correct way to format things and would insist on his way by continually changing it back and inadvisably making a failed attempt to add parameters to the infobox template. Not knowing what is appropriate for the WP:BIOLEAD or how to add an image. It is basically smorgasbord of top novice Wiki editor mistakes. Now, I know those of us who are concerned with the overall project and dedicate a large portion of our time to keeping an eye on our watch lists rather than edit the page we really want to work on can get frustrated when newbies come in and insist they know best and start messing with an article which had been stable for two years. The easiest and quickest way to deal with it is a quick revert and slap a warning template on the offending user's talk page. However, that is just as much drive-by editing, if not more so, than what Kmacjdwiki was doing. I also feel it was a mischaracterization to call him "hostile" and coming at us with "guns blazing". Aside from the borderline edit-warring, there were no hostile edit summaries (actually there's a dearth of any edit summaries) which often find their way into novice behavior when they get frustrated. I can understand if SportsGuy789 was loath to explain every policy, guideline and standard convention in formatting articles for sports people and why certain awards are not considered noteworthy but others are, but at some point it becomes worth it to write something on a talk page and not rely on a template. Chris troutman was an uninvolved third party and thus ought not be feeling frustration from Kmacjdwiki's edits. That's why I feel it was inappropriate and against the spirit of WP:DONTBITE to pop off in this manner on Julian's talk page. In conclusion, I think we (the long-term Wikipedians) could have handled this better and ultimately wasted less of our collective time. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 12:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)"

First, thank you SVTCobra. You are correct in saying that my errors were a "smorgasbord of top novice Wiki editor mistakes." I appreciate that you didn't jump to the conclusion that my intent was to scam, game, subvert, drive-by, money grab, scheme, deceive or behave in a "rogue" manner. Your colleagues could take a lesson on how you respond to editors who come to Wikipedia for the first time to edit a page. Whether that page is about them or not.

I also thank you for noticing, unlike your obviously angry colleague, that there was no hostile intent on my part. Just mistakes.

3. "I'm a misanthrope; I feel constant frustration with humanity. I sought to explain how it feels for Wikipedia editors dealing with a constant barrage of interference, intoning only that Kmacjdwiki's editing emulated that pattern to his detriment."

I'm not a psychologist but I think this person needs some time away.

That's all for me gentlemen. As I mentioned, from this point forward all my questions will be directed to the "Cobra" and I'll await his responses after he's consulted with whoever he needs to speak with.

Goodbye.

Kmacjdwiki (talk) 20:42, 19 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald

Freshmen eligibility in the Ivy League

@SportsGuy789: Sorry about the team color thing. I didn't know it was just for active players. Anyway, I know the NCAA allowed freshmen to play varsity starting in 1972 for football and basketball. The only source I could find for the Ivy League's implementation of the same rules was gradual. Do you know when it was introduced for basketball? Either way, I agree Keven McDonald as not on the roster for 1974-75 season and we need to fix his college career section. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 15:16, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

@SVTCobra: No worries, I am just deep into the WP:CBBALL / WP:NBA life here so I happened to be aware of the 'team' field thing. As far as freshmen ineligibility, I do not know the exact year for basketball, but I did find this article that definitively shows McDonald wasn't eligible ("My freshman year (when freshmen were still ineligible to play for the varsity), Penn played La Salle when Joe Bryant was a junior."). I'm not sure when the Ivy League allowed freshmen though. SportsGuy789 (talk) 15:33, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. I'll use that. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 15:35, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Gah, I don't know how I missed that those categories were nested. I specifically looked for that and thought to myself, well, that must be because not all athletes graduate, but still get to be in the player category. Anyway, I think I am done with this article, it feels very complete. There were 2 games for another team in Finland, but it felt like it raised more questions, like why only two? Was it an injury? So, I felt it insignificant enough to leave it out. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 19:45, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

It happens! I knew it was unintentional. I reviewed the article and I agree with you, there's not much to add at this point, at least info that could have references to support it. And the two-game stint does raise questions so I'm with you on that as well. Thanks for adding some content / references to beef everything up, it looks great! SportsGuy789 (talk) 00:02, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this was the first sports-related article I worked on. In a lot of ways it is much easier than another BLP I worked on recently. I did dive deep for some of the newspaper clips from the 70s, but statistics are so easy to find. You told me you are deep into the basketball part of Wikipedia. Have you ever heard of this NY/NJ all-stars vs. rest of US basketball game which preceded the McDonald's All American game before? I included it because it was in print in 1974 (and a coach referred to it again in 2019) but I don't know how many years it took place or who organized it. Keven McDonald himself was surprised I found it at all (see my talk page, there were other greats in that game). It might be an amazing piece of basketball history to resurrect on Wikipedia if it was more than one or two years. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 00:44, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Correction: See his talk page User_talk:Kmacjdwiki#Keven_McDonald. Sorry, if the indentation is not what you'd expect there. --SVTCobra (talk) 02:31, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

I've never heard of that all-star game before actually. I tried googling a bunch of keyword and key phrase variations to see what comes up, but I couldn't find anything. Seems like it might be a cool piece of American high basketball history that had very little coverage! SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:49, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Keven McDonald's Suggestions and Comments Regarding the Updated Article

Gentlemen,

I've read the updated article and I think it's great. It has a few more facts and is a more interesting read. I have some suggestions and comments below. Nothing I suggest below at all changes the intent or spirit of the newly written article. What I've done is reconfigure a few sentences for a smoother read, make minor factual additions or subtractions and provide an explanation for everything I suggested. Also, I've made no attempt to violate any rule, abuse any protocol or otherwise do violence to Wikipedia. Please review and let me know if you have any questions or need further clarification on anything. Otherwise, here we go:

Keven McDonald (born June 2, 1956) is an American former basketball player known for his collegiate career at the University of Pennsylvania from 1974 to 1978 with the Penn Quakers men's basketball team. He won the Robert V. Geasey Trophy as a junior and was named the Ivy League Player of the Year as a senior. Following his career at Penn, McDonald was selected in the 1978 NBA Draft by the Seattle SuperSonics as the 42nd overall pick. He went on to earn a law degree from Rutgers Law School–Newark and is now a licensed attorney and real estate investor in New Jersey.

• • Well done, no changes.

High school career[edit] A native of Bloomfield, New Jersey, McDonald attended Seton Hall Prep[1] where he was a standout on the basketball team, noted for his mature inside game and soft jumper from the outside.[2] Sometimes dubbed "Mr. Everything",[2] McDonald would rack up 1,774 career points, a school record which would stand until 2008 when it was broken by Ashton Gibbs.[3] In a then-annual exhibition game (which pre-dated the McDonald's All-American Game), pitting all-stars from New York and New Jersey against the rest of the country, McDonald would outscore future-hall-of-famer Moses Malone.[2] By the time he graduated in 1974,[1] McDonald received interest from hundreds of college basketball teams with noted scholarship offers from USC and UCLA.[2] Seton Hall Prep inducted McDonald into its Hall of Fame in 1987.[4]

• • One suggestion:

I would change this sentence:

By the time he graduated in 1974,[1] McDonald received interest from hundreds of college basketball teams with noted scholarship offers from USC and UCLA.[2] Seton Hall Prep inducted McDonald into its Hall of Fame in 1987.[4]

To this:

By the time he graduated in 1974,[1] McDonald had received interest from hundreds of colleges including scholarship offers from USC, UCLA and Kansas. Seton Hall Prep inducted McDonald into its Hall of Fame in 1987.[4]

I think this sentence is tighter and reads a bit more smoothly. I included Kansas because they were a real contender behind Penn, Princeton and Navy. Yes, USC and UCLA did offer scholarships but I would describe their interest as general. Kansas, on the other hand, had a serious interest in me. Now, how do I prove this after all these years? I have no idea. I understand Wiki’s need to confirm statements of fact so if you can’t include Kansas on that basis it’s no big deal but it is more accurate.

College career[edit] Wanting to stay close to home, McDonald gave serious consideration to offers from the U.S. Naval Academy and Princeton, but ultimately selected the University of Pennsylvania citing its strong academic reputation and good law school which he had an eye toward pursuing.[2][5] Due to freshman eligibility rules, McDonald did not play on the varsity team in his first year at Penn.[5] The team finished with a 23–5 overall record (13–1 in Ivy League) and were crowned as conference champions. They lost in the first round of the 1975 NCAA Tournament to Kansas State.[6] McDonald played the small forward position for the Quakers during an era in which they were a nationally prominent basketball program. During his sophomore year, McDonald played a prominent leadership role after Ron Haigler graduated. McDonald led Penn in scoring at 18.9 points per game,[7] but the team finished in second place with a 17–9 overall record (11–3 Ivy).[8] Penn's overall record was not enough to earn an invite to either of the NCAA or NIT postseason tournaments. McDonald earned his first of three consecutive selections to the All-Ivy League and All-Big 5 teams.[5] In 1976–77, McDonald led the Quakers in both scoring (21.2) and rebounding (9.2)[7] en route to being named the Robert V. Geasey Trophy recipient as the best player in Philadelphia Big 5 competition.[5] The team finished in second place in the Ivy League again with an 18–8 (12–2 Ivy) record.[9] That year was also head coach Chuck Daly's final one at Penn, a position he had held since 1971–72.[10] Daly was later inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.[11] Penn improved during McDonald's senior season in 1977–78, when he led the team in scoring for a third straight year at 22.3 points per game.[7] The Quakers finished at 20–8 (12–2 Ivy), earned a berth into the 1978 NCAA Tournament.[12] In the first round of the tournament, a victory against St. Bonaventure, McDonald scored a career high 37 points and grabbed 13 rebounds[13], which are both school records for the tournament.[5][14] In the second round (Sweet 16), with McDonald hampered by early foul trouble, the Quakers lost a close game in the final minutes to eventual tournament runner-up Duke.[15] McDonald was voted as the Ivy League Player of the Year.[5] McDonald is one of the most accomplished players in the history of the Penn Quakers basketball program. His 1,644 career points total is fourth on the all-time list (two of those ahead of him had four years of eligibility). He is second in points per game behind Ernie Beck.[5] In 1985, the Big 5 honored him by inducting him into its Hall of Fame.[16] The Ivy League placed McDonald in its 2018 Class of Legends of Ivy League Basketball for his lasting contributions to his basketball program, university and chosen profession.[17] In 2019, Penn inducted McDonald into its Athletics Hall of Fame.[5]

• • Suggestions:

1. I would change this:

Wanting to stay close to home, McDonald gave serious consideration to offers from the U.S. Naval Academy and Princeton, but ultimately selected the University of Pennsylvania citing its strong academic reputation and good law school which he had an eye toward pursuing.[2][5] Due to freshman eligibility rules, McDonald did not play on the varsity team in his first year at Penn.[5] The team finished with a 23–5 overall record (13–1 in Ivy League) and were crowned as conference champions. They lost in the first round of the 1975 NCAA Tournament to Kansas State.[6]

To this:

Wanting to stay close to home, McDonald gave serious consideration to offers from Penn, Princeton and the U.S. Naval Academy. He ultimately chose the University of Pennsylvania due to its strong academic reputation, nationally prominent basketball program and excellent law school.

(I would start a new paragraph here).

Due to the existing freshmen eligibility rules at that time McDonald could not play on the varsity team his first year at Penn. The team finished with a 23–5 overall record (13–1 in Ivy League) and were crowned as conference champions. They lost in the first round of the 1975 NCAA Tournament to Kansas State.[6]

2. I would change this:

McDonald played the small forward position for the Quakers during an era in which they were a nationally prominent basketball program. During his sophomore year, McDonald played a prominent leadership role after Ron Haigler graduated. McDonald led Penn in scoring at 18.9 points per game,[7] but the team finished in second place with a 17–9 overall record (11–3 Ivy).[8] Penn's overall record was not enough to earn an invite to either of the NCAA or NIT postseason tournaments. McDonald earned his first of three consecutive selections to the All-Ivy League and All-Big 5 teams

To this:

McDonald had to be a leader on the team his sophomore year (1975-1976) due to the graduation of NBA draftees Ron Haigler and Bob Bigelow. He led Penn in scoring at 18.9 points per game,[7] but the season ended with a record of 17-9 and a second place finish in the Ivy League (11-3). The second place finish in the Ivies precluded Penn from the NCAA tournament and the overall body of work was not impressive enough to be invited to the National Invitational Tournament (NIT). Even so, McDonald earned the first of three consecutive selections to the All-Ivy League and all Big 5 teams.

To me this reads a little better. Also, I took out the repitition of “prominent” and “overall”.

3. I would change this:

In 1976–77, McDonald led the Quakers in both scoring (21.2) and rebounding (9.2)[7] en route to being named the Robert V. Geasey Trophy recipient as the best player in Philadelphia Big 5 competition.[5] The team finished in second place in the Ivy League again with an 18–8 (12–2 Ivy) record.[9] That year was also head coach Chuck Daly's final one at Penn, a position he had held since 1971–72.[10] Daly was later inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.[11]

To this:

As a junior (1976-1977) McDonald led the Quakers in scoring (21.2), rebounding (9.2) and was awarded the Robert V. Geasey Trophy as the best player in the Philadelphia Big 5. The season concluded with an 18-8 record and another disappointing second place finish in the Ivy League (12-2). Notably, this would be the final year for Chuck Daly, Penn’s head coach since the 1971–72 season.[10] Daly’s subsequent coaching career flourished and he would go on to be inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.[11]

4. I would change this:

Penn improved during McDonald's senior season in 1977–78, when he led the team in scoring for a third straight year at 22.3 points per game.[7] The Quakers finished at 20–8 (12–2 Ivy), earned a berth into the 1978 NCAA Tournament.[12] In the first round of the tournament, a victory against St. Bonaventure, McDonald scored a career high 37 points and grabbed 13 rebounds[13], which are both school records for the tournament.[5][14] In the second round (Sweet 16), with McDonald hampered by early foul trouble, the Quakers lost a close game in the final minutes to eventual tournament runner-up Duke.[15] McDonald was voted as the Ivy League Player of the Year.[5]

To this:

In McDonald’s senior year (1977-1978) he lead the team in scoring for the third straight season at 22.3 points per game and was named Ivy League Player of the Year.[5]. More importantly, the Quakers as a team showed marked improvement with an overall record of 20-8. They were also Ivy League champions (12-2) earning a berth in the 1978 NCAA Tournament.[12].

(I would start a new paragraph here)

Penn beat St. Bonaventure in the first round of the tournament. In that game McDonald scored a career high 37 points and grabbed 13 rebounds, both of which remain school records for the tournament. In the second round (Sweet 16), with McDonald hampered by early foul trouble, the Quakers lost a close game in the final minutes to Duke.[15], who would eventually lose in the finals to the champion Kentucky Wildcats.

5. McDonald is one of the most accomplished players in the history of the Penn Quakers basketball program. His 1,644 career points total is fourth on the all-time list (two of those ahead of him had four years of eligibility). He is second in points per game behind Ernie Beck.[5] In 1985, the Big 5 honored him by inducting him into its Hall of Fame.[16] The Ivy League placed McDonald in its 2018 Class of Legends of Ivy League Basketball for his lasting contributions to his basketball program, university and chosen profession.[17] In 2019, Penn inducted McDonald into its Athletics Hall of Fame.[5]

For a bit more clarity I would change the sentence:

“He is second in points per game behind Ernie Beck”

To: “Only Penn’s legendary Ernie Beck averaged more points per game”

Professional career[edit] On June 9, 1978, McDonald was selected in the second round (42nd overall) in that year's National Basketball Association draft by the Seattle SuperSonics (later relocated to Oklahoma City Thunder).[18] The SuperSonics, who were coming off of an appearance in the NBA Finals and on the verge of the franchise's only championship, did not keep any of their rookies that year. McDonald was released by head coach Lenny Wilkins on September 30, 1978[19] and instead played briefly in Europe.[5] McDonald played 34 games for Finnish club Turun NMKY, helping the team win silver in the Korisliiga for the 1978–79 season.[20] In 1979, McDonald tried out for the San Diego Clippers and the following year with the Philadelphia 76ers where his former college head coach Chuck Daly was then an assistant coach, but was not picked up by either team.[21] McDonald played for the Lancaster Red Roses in the CBA for the 1979–80 season, the final season of the franchise.[22]

1. In the first paragraph I would change:

“…and instead played briefly in Europe.[5]....”

To:

“…and went to play in Europe.[5].

A tighter sentence and a smoother read.

2. I would change the second paragraph from:

In 1979, McDonald tried out for the San Diego Clippers and the following year with the Philadelphia 76ers where his former college head coach Chuck Daly was then an assistant coach, but was not picked up by either team.[21] McDonald played for the Lancaster Red Roses in the CBA for the 1979–80 season, the final season of the franchise.[22]

To:

“After returning from Europe McDonald was invited to successive pre-season camps; the San Diego Clippers in 1979 and the Philadelphia 76ers in 1980. He was not picked up by either team.[21] “

This sentence is much less cumbersome.

I eliminated the second mention of Chuck Daly. A prior paragraph had already established he was my college coach and the fact that he was the assistant for the 76ers at the time adds no additional relevance to the sentence.

I also eliminated the reference to the Lancaster Red Roses because I did not play for them the entire season. I played perhaps two, no more than 3, inconsequential games for them as a substitute for an absent player. I wouldn’t have been able to commit for the whole season as I was working and studying for my Series 7 license at the time. But my god, where did you even find the info on the Red Roses?!! I had completely forgotten about that.

Post-athletic career[edit]

I would change this:

After being cut by the Clippers, McDonald took a job as a stockbroker for Dean Witter in San Francisco. He transferred to the Philadelphia branch, allowing him to try out for the 76ers.[21] McDonald earned a law degree from Rutgers Law School–Newark,[23] and is a licensed New Jersey attorney. He also owns and operates McDonald Properties, LLC, a real estate investment company.[24]

To this:

“McDonald’s failed tryout with the 76ers would be his last attempt at a professional basketball career. After stints in financial services and insurance claims he decided to go to law school. He earned a law degree (JD) from Rutgers School of Law-Newark and is a licensed New Jersey attorney. He also owns and operates McDonald Properties, LLC, a real estate investment company.”

I took out the part about Dean Witter because, like the Red Roses above, my time there was brief and insignificant. Nor did my move to Philadelphia have anything to do with the 76ers, other than I got a tryout because I happened to be in Philly at the time. And rather than post my entire resume on Wikipedia I made a general reference to the industries I was in before moving on to the law.

I put JD in parentheses to distinguish the degree I earned from an LLB or LLM.

Gentlemen, there you have it. My suggestions on what I believe is a very well done update to the original article. I await your thoughts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmacjdwiki (talk • contribs) 23:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry gentlemen, I forgot to sign...

Kmacjdwiki (talk) 00:10, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald

 Comment: Some quick observations about the suggestions. If I were writing a book about Keven McDonald or the Penn basketball program, I would not have a problem implementing most, if not all, of the suggestions. Wikipedia, however, is not such a work and has a strict WP:NPOV policy. (A policy which is also the most difficult to parse and enforce). Therefore, I am loath to include include terms such as "disappointing" because Princeton and its fans were probably not disappointed in Penn's second place finish. I am cautious, but not totally opposed, to call Ernie Beck "legendary". The Philadelphia Sports Writers Association has named Beck a "living legend"[5] and I am sure he looms large at the Palestra. Pairing his name with "legend" in a Google search only comes up with one exact match. Beck played his entire HS, college, and NBA (at least the meaningful portion) career in Philadelphia. Perhaps "local legend" is more applicable. I don't mind not naming Dean Witter as the company where McDonald was employed, it is inconsequential to both McDonald and the company. I will look at the interviews again to see if we can include insurance as part of the post-basketball section, otherwise I think insurance broadly fits under financial services, especially if we change stock broker to that. However, I don't like the idea of dropping Lancaster Red Roses, though we can clarify it was a very limited role. Removing it would mean removing Category:Lancaster Red Roses (CBA) players, thus undermining the significance of that franchise and our coverage of it. Also, because this did happen (and there were two games for Hyvinkään Tahko in 1980-81), I don't like calling the 76ers try-out the last attempt at a pro career; but maybe NBA career(?). Mentioning McDonald's path crossed again with Daly is an interesting piece of trivia, in my opinion. Its inclusion is not meant to suggest McDonald got the invite to camp as a favor and I don't think it is written in a way which implies such. And, yes, I had noticed my last edit to the article (moving a sentence) put the word "prominent" in back-to-back sentences which is just bad writing. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 12:39, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Gentlemen,

Below is a copy of the new article that includes the suggestions and changes I describe above. I felt it would be more convenient for you to compare my version with the original new version if you could see the whole thing. Also, I've read SVTCobra's comments immediately above. I understand that your rules may prevent some of the suggestions and changes I've made.

Keven McDonald (born June 2, 1956) is an American former basketball player known for his collegiate career at the University of Pennsylvania from 1974 to 1978 with the Penn Quakers men's basketball team. He won the Robert V. Geasey Trophy as a junior and was named the Ivy League Player of the Year as a senior. Following his career at Penn, McDonald was selected in the 1978 NBA Draft by the Seattle SuperSonics as the 42nd overall pick. He went on to earn a law degree from Rutgers Law School–Newark and is now a licensed attorney and real estate investor in New Jersey.

High school career A native of Bloomfield, New Jersey, McDonald attended Seton Hall Prep[1] where he was a standout on the basketball team, noted for his mature inside game and soft jumper from the outside.[2] Sometimes dubbed "Mr. Everything",[2] McDonald would rack up 1,774 career points, a school record which would stand until 2008 when it was broken by Ashton Gibbs.[3] In a then-annual exhibition game (which pre-dated the McDonald's All-American Game), pitting all-stars from New York and New Jersey against the rest of the country, McDonald would outscore future-hall-of-famer Moses Malone.[2] By the time he graduated in 1974,[1] McDonald had received interest from hundreds of colleges including scholarship offers from USC, UCLA and Kansas. Seton Hall Prep inducted McDonald into its Hall of Fame in 1987.[4]

College career[edit] Wanting to stay close to home, McDonald gave serious consideration to offers from Penn, Princeton and the U.S. Naval Academy. He ultimately chose the University of Pennsylvania due to its strong academic reputation, nationally prominent basketball program and excellent law school. Due to the existing freshmen eligibility rules at that time McDonald could not play on the varsity team his first year at Penn. The team finished with a 23–5 overall record (13–1 in Ivy League) and were crowned as conference champions. They lost in the first round of the 1975 NCAA Tournament to Kansas State.[6]

McDonald had to be a leader on the team his sophomore year (1975-1976) due to the graduation of NBA draftees Ron Haigler and Bob Bigelow. He led Penn in scoring at 18.9 points per game,[7] but the season ended with a record of 17-9 and a second place finish in the Ivy League (11-3). The second place finish in the Ivies precluded Penn from the NCAA tournament and the overall body of work was not impressive enough to be invited to the National Invitational Tournament (NIT). Even so, McDonald earned the first of three consecutive selections to the All-Ivy League and all Big 5 teams.

As a junior (1976-1977) McDonald led the Quakers in scoring (21.2), rebounding (9.2) and was awarded the Robert V. Geasey Trophy as the best player in the Philadelphia Big 5. The season concluded with an 18-8 record and another disappointing runner-up finish in the Ivy League (12-2). Notably, this would be the final year for Chuck Daly, Penn’s head coach since the 1971–72 season.[10] Daly’s subsequent coaching career flourished and he would go on to be inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.[11]

In McDonald’s senior year (1977-1978) he lead the team in scoring for the third straight season at 22.3 points per game and was named Ivy League Player of the Year.[5]. More importantly, the Quakers as a team showed marked improvement with an overall record of 20-8. They were also Ivy League champions (12-2) earning a berth in the 1978 NCAA Tournament.[12]

Penn beat St. Bonaventure in the first round of the tournament. In that game McDonald scored a career high 37 points and grabbed 13 rebounds, both of which remain school records for the tournament. In the second round (Sweet 16), with McDonald hampered by early foul trouble, the Quakers lost a close game in the final minutes to Duke.[15], who would eventually lose in the finals to the champion Kentucky Wildcats.

McDonald is one of the most accomplished players in the history of the Penn Quakers basketball program. His 1,644 career points total is fourth on the all-time list (two of those ahead of him had four years of eligibility). Only Penn’s legendary Ernie Beck.[5] averaged more points per game. In 1985, the Big 5 honored him by inducting him into its Hall of Fame.[16] The Ivy League placed McDonald in its 2018 Class of Legends of Ivy League Basketball for his lasting contributions to his basketball program, university and chosen profession.[17] In 2019, Penn inducted McDonald into its Athletics Hall of Fame.[5]

Professional career[edit] On June 9, 1978, McDonald was selected in the second round (42nd overall) in that year's National Basketball Association draft by the Seattle SuperSonics (later relocated to Oklahoma City Thunder).[18] The SuperSonics, who were coming off of an appearance in the NBA Finals and on the verge of the franchise's only championship, did not keep any of their rookies that year. McDonald was released by head coach Lenny Wilkins on September 30, 1978[19] and went to play in Europe.[5] McDonald played 34 games for Finnish club Turun NMKY, helping the team win silver in the Korisliiga for the 1978–79 season.[20]

After returning from Europe McDonald was invited to two pre-season camps; the San Diego Clippers in 1979 and the Philadelphia 76ers in 1980. He was not picked up by either team.[21]

Post-athletic career[edit] McDonald’s failed tryout with the 76ers would be his last attempt at a professional basketball career. After stints in financial services and insurance claims he decided to go to law school. He earned a law degree (JD) from Rutgers School of Law-Newark and is a licensed New Jersey attorney. He also owns and operates McDonald Properties, LLC, a real estate investment company.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Kmacjdwiki (talk) 18:39, 22 June 2019 (UTC)Keven McDonald

 Comment: Thanks for your dedication, Mr. McDonald. I know you have and continue to put more time into this than you ever intended. I have not had any time to look at your latest submission, but I want to caution you, so that you don't end up in a situation where you feel like you have wasted your time. Whatever changes we make, whether I make them or SportsGuy789 (or some third editor) makes them, they will always be open to change. There will never be a so-called final form of the article. I say this because you are relatively new here. I will work with you to get the article so good that hopefully nobody will feel the need to change it, but it will always be open to further editing. (And pasting an entire new version is not particularly helpful, just in case you thought so. I don't have a tool which says "show me the changes".) I apologize, I don't have more time today. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 23:15, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Kansas

Despite the subject of the article informing us that he received a scholarship offer from Kansas Jayhawks men's basketball, I have not been able to verify. The author of this article probably knew all the schools, but their decision to highlight only USC and UCLA limits what we can include in the article. Maybe that person didn't know Kansas would be more important to include than USC, I don't know, but here we are 40+ years later. --SVTCobra 16:38, 27 June 2019 (UTC)