Talk:Ketchup chip/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: Clovermoss (talk · contribs) 01:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 11:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going to review this because doing so looks easy! Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose and content

You can flesh out the lede to better summarize the contents of the article; a lot of attention is paid in the body to what it tastes like for example but this receives no mention in the lede.
For structure, move some relevant information not included into the body from the lede and summarize it in the lede if it is the most important.
The contested origins should be covered. I can't remember the essay I'm meant to be quoting (source mining? etc) but thebiguglyalien covers my point pretty well in User:Thebiguglyalien/The source, the whole source, and nothing but the source. With an article of this size, broadness unfortunately comes quite close to comprehensive.
the production of → producing
profitable, as other flavours like orange and grape were discontinued either remove the comma to signify "as" referring to time or change to and to expand on the first half of the sentence. The other chips would not have been unprofitable because they were discontinued but the other way around.
You can remove the caption from the first image as it is redundant
Thrillest is spelled "Thrillist", change in the article text and #cite web. If you want to wikilink The Takeout, consider also linking Thrillist.
Rearrange the quotes from Thrillist to clarify that the dusting is the contents of the bottle (and not the glass I suppose)
and therefore limits product innovation this is redundant if the only innovation being referred to is a salt-reduced variety referred to earlier in the sentence.
in comparison to the United States → than varieties in the United States.
where more varieties → where varieties more often
flavour ~~profile~~
but discontinued production in the American market any idea when this was?
it failed to succeed this reads as quite euphemistic, could you clarify as "after low sales" etc?
In 2023, two Americans travelled from Virginia to Niagara Falls, Ontario, in order to purchase forty bags of ketchup chips. A Canadian grocery store then shipped them nine cases of potato chips.[12] They donated some of the chips to local schools. I am going to be a buzzkill and ask you cut this. For it to be included in a high-level overview of the place of ketchup chips in International markets is undue, and for it to take up 1/3 of such coverage is particuarly inappropriate.
Hyphenate limited edition
I would date the claim that they are "sold in almost every Canadian grocery store"; the source does such dating and in twenty years it's not clear it will still be true or updated.

Suggestions

Considering the invention is (typically) credited to Hostess, seems worth mentioning that such chips are now sold under the Lay's brand.
tasting "like a bottle of ketchup my preference with quotes like these are to put "like" on the outside as I think it flows better into the quote.
Canadian identity may be a good link.
I am not American so I imagined Manitoba was a city. Consider glossing it as a province?
differing immigration trends → their respective immigration histories
There is limited production of the variety → Few ketchup chips are produced
Maybe drop in Template:Chips and crisps at the bottom?
In a source list such as what you have for the book, it's preferable to format it by wrapping it with Template:refbegin and Template:refend. You can see this in the important article I wrote for chocolate in savory cooking.
Consider adding alt text to images for accessibility.

Sources

Remove the "html" from the middle of the Thrillist link as it's turning it into a dead link

Spot check

From this version

[2] clock It being described as a "classic" and having "woven itself into our cultural fabric" does not necessarily verify it is popular. The things core to the cultural identity of my country for example are not necessarily actually very popular.
[4] Y
[6] Y AGF
[8] Y
[10] clock Can you quote this for me?
[12] clock Can you quote me Frito Lay does not sell its ketchup chips in the US?
[14] Y
[16] Y

Other

Images Y: very credible authorship claim to first image, second has similarly credible claim. Appropriately tagged. Consider more neutrally captioning second with more valuable information, such as the branding of the chips.
Neutral Y
Broad / summary style N Some concerns, cleared up by removing specified information and more source mining.
No OR/COPYVIO Y 2% earwig
Stable Y

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ping Rollinginhisgrave The Americans travelling to Canada made national news so I don't think it's inappropriate to mention this. Another reason it's relevant is that it's an example of the limited production in the United States... someone isn't travelling that far if they can buy it easily. I'll take a look at the rest of this later, but that in particular jumped out to me. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe moving the content about the difference in flavour preferences between Canada and the United States to the international markets section would help address your length concerns? I removed a sentence about how they donated some of these chips to schools in the meantime. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:28, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be back home late on Saturday/early Sunday so that's when I'll be able to provide a more detailed response to this review. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:00, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Complete response

@Rollinginhisgrave:

I will consider fleshing out the lead, but partly why I did not repeat what it tastes like on is because varying authors describe it differently and I didn't want to place WP:UNDUE emphasis on any one interpretation while also keeping it concise. I was going for something like the lead of chicken, which I think is probably accomplished here?
- One way you could summarize the reviews comments is that the flavor does not replicate that of ketchup, or an equivalent statement.
Re For structure, move some relevant information not included into the body from the lede and summarize it in the lede if it is the most important., could you be a bit more specific about what you mean by this?
- You've done this for the most part, but the fact that the origins are not unanimously attributed to Hostess is not present in the body. Move the fact there, the summarize it if its relevant to the lede.
A bit confused about what exactly you mean by broadness unfortunately comes quite close to comprehensive. I've read the essay you've referenced before and I don't think anything I've done goes against it? Are you seeing something I'm not? The source states "contested origins" but doesn't clarify and the link given to another site is a 404 error.
- My read of The Food Network Article's "Digging deeper, it appears that the story could be more complicated. An American company in Pennsylvania, Herr’s Snacks, has reportedly been making ketchup-flavoured chips since the early 1980s." has implications that it may have a different, potentially American origin.
Done
Done
Done – removed, although maybe I should clarify that this is a photo of Lays ketchup chips specifically instead of removing the caption altogether? Other brands sell their own versions of the chips.
- That's a great idea, but you should also add that to description of the image on Commons first due to the bizarre way we treat OR in relation to that.
Done – the reason I didn't link the other outlet was because of the misspelling leading me to believe we didn't have an article on it
Done – although I doubt the average reader would come to the conclusion that I was talking about the flavour of a glass bottle? I worry that the extra words are redundant, akin to how you don't start an article with "Z bridge is a bridge".
I don't think it's redundant because many innovations were tried, this is just the given rationale for why they don't work. I can share the page with you if you'd like to verify the text.
Done
I don't think this works because it makes the phrasing of "where more varieties have a creamier flavour" later on sound awkward and this isn't resolved by your other suggestion imo
The source doesn't specify when this was.
Changed to "failed to be profitable".
Not done – for reasons I stated above. I have removed a sentence to make this more concise and clarified that this story made national news to emphasize its importance. I'd say the story is a microcosm to what these chips mean to Canadian culture.
- I don't love it. I understand you're trying to communicate how hard comparatively it is in America to get it, but a) I don't think it needs an example to illustrate it, it's pretty clear, b) What the text is emphasizing isn't really expressing how hard it is to get in America compared to Canada, rather it's expressing how much these particular people love ketchup chips. I'll hand it over to you to make a judgement.
Why? Limited edition does not hyphenate this. Seeing it hyphenated also feels wrong. Maybe it's an ENGVAR thing?
- Maybe a preference. All good.
I did this but it also feels wrong, so I changed it back. As I said in my edit summary, it's been this way for my entire life. I think it's actually misleading to readers to say this because it gives the impression that it's a claim that's likely to become outdated.
- Up to you. The idea isn't that we're saying it's likely to be outdated, but that we don't know.
Hostess is owned by Lay's so wouldn't it be a bit tangential to mention that here? If I did, I'd have to go digging for a source that may or may not exist that clarifies that the Hostess label isn't often used for chips anymore.
- I read "the ketchup chip came to be when Hostess (now Lays)" so I thought it was sold under the name Lays. Given you later mention "Frito Lay does not sell its ketchup chips in the US", I thought it was relevant information.
I have linked Canadian identity.
I clarified that Manitoba is a province.
I added the template.
I can try to figure this out, but I am unsure why it would be a good idea. I used the formatting used by the reviewer in my other GA Katherine Hughes (activist).
- All good.
I will address the spot check concerns tomorrow (and email requested pages to you). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rollinginhisgrave: I've made some changes to the lead since your initial review. Let me know if it's closer to what you're looking for. I think I know what you hinted at in regards to source mining... I might be able to get a few more sentences out of the Vice source. I'll try to do that within the next few days. Otherwise I think I've been pretty good about using these sources to their fullest potential. Let me know if there's anything else you're concerned about.

I think you're okay after above is addressed.

Re spot checks

Spot check request 1. The source says: "Ketchup and salt and vinegar flavours were marketed for years in both countries, but were ultimately popular only in Canada" after talking about how these flavours were "duds south of the border" that were discontinued.
Spot check number 2: "In fact, Lays doesn’t even sell ketchup chips in the US market, which has made them something of a curiosity to Americans." [1]

Looking good Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clovermoss a few last comments, handing most over to your judgement. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]