Talk:Kepi

Name

An odd name like 'kepi' demands an explanation. --Smack (talk) 02:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The article is not referring to the origins of the word "kepi". It derives from the Swiss German word "chaeppi" and it probably found its way to the French Military through the Swiss mercenaries who used to fight for foreign countries such as France during centuries.

 Seems alike to how "Huguenots" stems also from the Swiss German "Eidgenossen"88.104.159.79 (talk) 23:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

wider origins

The entirely French centred origin is probably in error, especially citing that as the main influence of the American version of the hat. Reading "British Military Spectacle: From the Napoleonic wars through the Crimea" (a book about British military uniform of that period) the author Scott Hughes Myerly describes the origin of the hat style as being primarily Prussian, and influential in the change of the Shako style from the Belgic (Bell Shako) to the Kepi style. He also explains that it was from a touring party of Prussian soldier in the United States that the style was adopted. -These are styles of headdress where the diameter of the top is narrower than that of the bottom, unlike the French version which is straight. OzoneO (talk) 07:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That is an interesting premise but I think that Scott Hughes Myerly may be confusing the kepi with the wide-topped forage cap with a leather peak, as worn by the US Army from 1839 - most notably as service dress during the 1846-48 Mexican-American War. This peaked cap was definitely of Prussian origin. However in 1850 a general order announced the introduction of a new basic uniform for the entire US Army which closely followed changes made in the French Army five years before - including the casquette or kepi. As worn by the French infantry in the Crimean War of 1853-56, this was identical in all but colour to the US/CSA Civil War headdress. Like its North American counterpart, the French kepi had a narrower crown than base until the early 1880s - only then did it became straight sided. Regards Buistr (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The French kepi popularised a form that had appeared first in the Austrian cavalry during the Napoleonic wars. It was essentially a soft crowned version of the shako, (another form that had originated in the army of the Hapsburg empire- a conical cap of Serb origin with the addition of a peak or visor). Described successively as Holzmutze then Feldmutze, this form lasted until 1851 when the cavalry adopted the fore-and-aft, folding Lagermutze with a chin strap. The conical peaked cap remained in use as an 'off-duty' cap for both cavalry and infantry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JF42 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 22 October 2011 (UTC) JF42 (talk) 18:06, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

"the French kepi had a narrower crown than base until the early 1880s - only then did it became straight sided." The French never straightened their kepis in 1880s! prove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.239.132 (talk) 05:00, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

guy de maupassant

did a story called the kepi someone should mention it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.1.212 (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Diktat of the European Union

I read that the reason the French Police discarded the kepi was that the European Union decided that those from other member countries couldn't be expected to immediately tell who were the police and who were just military personnel wandering about. This would be important if police assistance was needed in a hurry, or if the "European citizen" couldn't understand French very well and was accosted by a policeman -- or would that be a military official? The Germans too had distinctive caps for town police, which I think they similarly had to discard. Your statement about vehicles is silly. The French have driven cars for years. 4.154.253.61 (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Your unnamed source is incorrect (and 30 years out of date). The French Police Nationale discarded the kepi in 1982, replacing it with a low peaked cap described as being of American style. The reasons given in media statements at the time were that the rigid kepi was inconvenient for ordinary use and too high to be comfortably worn in police vehicles. The European Union had nothing to do with it.121.73.91.201 (talk) 09:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Missing reference

I can't help but notice that the use of the kepi by the Nazi-era SA is not mentioned at all. I think that's perhaps a bit too political. Wikipedia is suppose to be a neutral realistic reference. 83.85.150.246 (talk) 20:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps not excluded for political reasons. Round caps with straight sides and peaks have worn by many organisations in many countries under different names. Strictly speaking a "kepi" is the version worn by the French military and police for about 160 years or close copies of it. The cap worn by the SA and other Nazi bodies was longer and narrower in shape and appears to have been derived from that worn by German mountain units in World War I. Certainly it is unlikely to have been a conscious imitation of the kepi - military symbol of France the old enemy!Buistr (talk) 21:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Fair points in terms of the shape I think, although as I understand it it would still fall under the header 'kepi'. And as for the French enemy, I think most countries have similarity in uniform, regardless if they are historically bitter enemies or not. But thanks for the input and the reference to its likely history. 83.85.150.246 (talk) 12:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Some changes.

A few changes here. A major problem is the French Foreign Legion. Their headgear is described as a kepi, although it is noticeably different from the soft version. The German S.A. headgear is similar, and would be considered a képi, although the Germans don't use the word. The 1909 Austro-Hungarian uniform included a "stiff" képi for officers and staff, and a soft cap described as a képi by, for example, Mollo & Turner. I've removed a lot of the stuff about what the Austrians didn't wear, but will shortly replace it with an improved version. The Belgian section is entirely inadequate; the Belgian Army used various types of képi from the 1860s until 1915. I shall expand this when time permits. Bear with me, as we say.

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Belgium.

I'm afraid there's a basic misunderstanding here. Belgian troops (post-Napoleonic) had two types of headgear: one for parade and campaign, and one "undress". The styles varied widely from one branch to another. The képi was introduced as a third option for officers only. It was a different thing from the bonnet de police, kwartiermuts, or chapski.

As for the Yser cap, some call it a képi and some don't. Issue was only partial, and it was soon ditched in favour of the British style.

Please read the sources again, especially Pawley.Hengistmate (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

• Sorry but I overlooked your entry here before restoring the newly added material on the Belgian kepi and asking for discussion on the talk page.

• However re the specific points above. Guy Derie's Les Soldats de Leopold Ier et Leopold II is a heavily illustrated Belgian book which gives detailed coverage of the uniforms of the Belgian Army from 1832 to the immediate pre-WWI period. It includes a photograph of the bonnet de police d'Infanterie de Ligne (troupe) as worn from 1845 until replaced on 18 December 1868 by the round peakless forage cap familiar in August 1914. The 1845 other-ranks headdress is identical to the French bonnet de police of the same period, which is included in the "Kepi" article. Another photo and several colour plates show the officers' 1859 version of the kepi (bonnet de ville) to be slightly different in outline to the higher other-ranks model - again following the French example.

• I agree with all the points you have added and was careful not to delete or change any. However I think that as far as the French and Belgium armies are concerned pre-1915, round undress and peaked "kepis" and "bonnets de police" refer to essentially the same article, although one that underwent changes in dimension and profile over many years. As such, IMHO, references to both should be left in the text of the "Kepi" article. My only problem with the article as it stands is the inclusion of the German "mountain cap" but I guess that is another issue.

• Regards. Buistr (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello. Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't visit Wikipedia very often, and I appreciate the care you have taken with this section. I can't though, agree with you entirely, although the sometimes rather indiscriminate use of terms by various sources is far from helpful. Let's start here:

Derie & Pacco: p38 Referring to the Régiment des Grenadiers et Voltigeurs, 27 Nov, 1837; "a new model of bonnet de police is adopted, in dark blue cloth with red piping and blue peak." The photo top left of p40 appears to be that item. That is supported by the illustration by Robert Aubry of Le Régiment des Grenadiers, 1854-1871. That shows a soft peaked cap corresponding to Derie & Pacco's description, as well as several low kepis for officers, already with the Austrian Knot on the top. The illustration on p24 shows a Grenadier of 1855 wearing the junior officers' képi.

This headgear is also noted on p38 as being issued to the Régiment d'Elite (mixed Grenadiers and Voltigeurs) on Jan 31, 1845. On p42 it states that the same bonnet de police was issued to Line Infantry, with the regimental number on the front, instead of a grenade or horn - as I say, the photo top left of p40. Now it may answer the description of a kepi, but it is referred to as a bonnet de police, whereas the képi of 1859, pictured on p43, is specifically referred to as a képi. The point is that the képi was initially comparatively low but, as stated in the article, evolved and became much higher by 1900/1910. During that time, the 1845 bonnet was replaced by the round, peakless 1868 bonnet. The outcome was that by 1914 a Line Infantry officer had a choice of 3 items of headgear: the shako, the képi, or the wedge-shaped bonnet de police descended from the one shown on p19, left. But on the "family tree" the kepi was not the descendant of the 1845 bonnet de police but an item in its own right. It might also be pointed out that from 1849 cadets and pupils also wore the képi (p 100 and 104-5)

What Derie & Pacco seem not to have observed is that the Génie retained the 1837/1845 bonnet de police right up to 1914. It's mentioned on p38 of the Handbook of the Belgian Army but, less than helpfully, describes it as "a sort of small shako of dark blue cloth with red trimmings." It can be seen in the set of photographs published by the Préaux brothers of Ghlin at the time of the army reforms of 1913. The normal shako is worn in Grande Tenue and Tenue de Campagne, but the man in Tenue de Sortie is clearly wearing something very different. It isn't actually very clear, but it is piped red, and Pierre Lierneux states that the "Yser képi M1914 resembles the Génie model", which implies that it was of soft material. The illustrations of James Thiriar show a pontonnier of 1890 wearing something very similar with visible red piping.

In passing: a footnote to Aubry's illustrations says, "December 1859: adoption of a general model of bonnet de police (képi) for officers.", which does not help at all. The 1906 Handbook describes officers' képis as forage caps, and the 1914 Handbook states that Carabinier Cyclists wore "a round cap with peak in front, yellow band", whereas 0fficers wore a képi (which is confirmed in photos of the Cyclist Battalion).

So it isn't straightforward.. I think there is no argument but that the 1900/1910 is a képi, and there seems to be no point in including a list of items of Belgian headgear that aren't képis. After that, the question of whether something is a kepi depends on whether people choose to call it such. The Yser cap, for example: it fits Wikipedia's definition - a cap with a flat circular top and a peak - but do the flaps disqualify it? I certainly share your unease about the Bergmütze being considered a kepi, and what Austrian ski caps have to do with it eludes me.

Where do we go from here? Well, it isn't the most important topic in the world, and I have learned not to create hostages to fortune. If there is doubt, leave it out. I think what we need is an acknowledgement that there are kepis and also things that are sometimes described as kepis. I'm confident that we can construct a section that reflects that and does not contain anything that can be contradicted. Constructive collaboration is a cornerstone of Wikipedia, of course. Hengistmate (talk) 14:15, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

British railwaymen have donned straight kepis long before the French army, police and paramilitaries

Long before the French somehow thought it cleverlike to kit out both their French foreign legion, their army, their police and their gendamerie paramilitaries in the same headdress, the aforesaid straight kepi was nowt but a railwaymen's headwear in the northern European lands of Britain and Germany. Has can be seen in the 1937 German film "Der Mann, Der Sherlock Holmes War" which is set in the 1880s at the most. "The Man Who Was Sherlock Holmes" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.159.79 (talk) 04:22, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Need pics of Nation of Islam kepis, historical British railwaymen kepis and Salvation Army kepis. Less misleading pics overlinking the kepi to the French.

Nation of Islam kepis... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_Islam

British railwaymen kepis... https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=british+railways+victorian+uniform&safe=strict&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVwuqKjufZAhViJsAKHWRFAEcQ_AUICigB#imgrc=_

Salvation Army kepis... http://www.heilsarmeemuseum-basel.ch/E/uniform_major.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.237.140 (talk) 16:11, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

1919 (proto-bergfilm) film: Blind Husbands - earliest cinematic kepi?

Austrian kepi http://torontofilmsociety.org/film-notes/blind-husbands-1919/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:490:A600:9C80:1CD4:6149:99F5 (talk) 03:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Captain Scarlet kepis

Kepis are everywhere. Even Jewish concentration camp guards. As if NWO surplus.

Kepis brimmed Turkish fez hats

Should be byworded. Seems an common origin betwixt the kepi hat and fez hat. 2A00:23C7:9C97:5D01:90F8:CCED:EBC4:5298 (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Not really. The fez evolved in the Ottoman Empire during the early 19th century as a substitute for the turban historically worn by the general population. The kepi appeared in the French Army somewhat later as a practical version of the heavy shako. Buistr (talk) 21:50, 2 July 2022 (UTC)