Talk:Kelly Marie Ellard

Kelly Ellard admitting to murder?

Look at this site at CTV: New trial..., now click on the video section. Once the video screen pops up, go to full screen mode. Go around 0:40 seconds and you will hear a reporter asking Kelly Ellard(who is seen walking to court with her parents) "Kelly, did you kill Reena Virk?". Ellard replies, "Obviously". Could she be admitting to murder? Or is the media twisting things around to make it sound like she confessed to the murder of Reena Virk?

I tried this video link and all I got was an ad for Discovery HD tv. Could be my player, I don't know.--Ibis3 14:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

necessary to mention?

I'm just wondering if mentioning that Reena Virk was of South Asian descent gives the impression that the crime was racially motivated, which is apparently not the case.--Ibis3 14:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

There was a lot of coverage at the time of the murder on racial motivation in it. I think it is entirely relevant and am re-adding it -- Samir धर्म 05:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have to disagree with you Samir. I don't know what media coverage you were reading, at the time, but the British Columbia media never put a racial spin on the crime. Only in the form of Yasmin Jiwani, a professor at Simon Fraser University, who believed it was racially motivated. She made an article about it, which appeared in Kinesis: News About Women That's Not in the Dailies. In addition, two of the six girls who first beat up Virk were black. There was a total of 5 trials in this case and never once did a witness testify that Virk was beaten up for being east-indian. On the night of the murder, no one said racist things to Virk. The motive of the crime was revenge plain and simple. The girl, who had a her phone book stolen by Virk, gathered up her friends and decided to punish Virk for using the phone book to call the girl's friends and spread rumors about her. Later, Ellard murdered Virk to keep Virk from going to the police and getting Ellard and her friends in trouble. Ellard was a mentally screwed up girl and would have killed Virk if she had been white too. I don't think race made a difference to Kelly Ellard. Hopefully, she will rot in prison for the rest of her miserable life. I'm taking out the south asian descent reference, because it is misleading. It puts a racial spin on it when the facts of case clearly do not reflect racism. 213.201.38.20 22:54, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a tonne of literature on racial motivation in the Virk case in the Canadian media. Here's a subset. Google: [1] -- Samir धर्म 22:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

No you're wrong. There is a ton of nothing. Many of them link back to Yasmin Jiwani; some of them didn't even work. She's east-indian I notice you are too. Perhaps you both are letting your personal feelings into this. Why do you have to think because a white person kills a non-white person racism plays into it? The crime was motivated out of trivial teenage problems. None of them have to do with Reena's ethnicity. Been looking into some of those links many of them are message boards. People's opinions are not literature. Some of them say racism didn't play a part. Fighting for Justice 03:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's what I found on the subject:

• Here's a book review published in Canadian Review of American Studies of Rinaldo Walcott's Rude Necessity, a complilation of essays including Tess Chakkalakal’s "Reckless Eyeballing: Being Reena in Canada" that takes as its premise the racial motivations about the attack. [2]
• Here's a debate from the BC legislature that talks about bullying in the school system, and ties the Virk case to racism: [3] [4]
• Davina Bhandar, professor of Canadian studies at Trent University has spoken many times about the link of race to the Virk case (here's the link to a talk she gave at UVic) [5].
• The Canadian Review of Sociology and Anthropology recently published Brown Girls, White Worlds: Adolescence and the Making of Racialized Selves, by M. Rajiva (assistant professor of sociology and criminology at St. Mary's University), citation: The Canadian Review of Sociology and Anthropology, vol. 43, no. 2, pp. 165-183, that talks about the role of race using the Virk case as one example.
• "Crimes of colour: Racialization and the Criminal Justice System in Canada" by Wendy Chan and Kiran Mirchandi: [6] pp. 76-77 talks about Yasmin Jiwani's opinion, and expands on erasure of race and its role in the case.
• More from Mirchandi and E. Tastsoglou from Journal of Status in Political Economy (entitled Towards a diversity beyond tolerance): [7].
• "Racism, Girl Violence and the Murder of Reena Virk" by Sheila Batacharya, Chapter 4 of Girls' Violence: Myths and Realities edited by Anne Worrall and Christine Alder [8] provides an extensive analysis of the role of race as a key determinant in Virk's case.
• Even a Master's thesis from Carleton University from 1998 expounds on racism and the Virk case: [9].
• Transnational Migration And the Politics of Identity edited by Meenakshi Thapan (page 9) discusses racism and the Virk case [10].
• Add to this Dr. Jiwani's body of literature: [11] [12] [13] [14], and I think the tie in to race is quite clear.

I question Fighting for Justice's knowledge of the case. Might I add that the rant about my "personal feelings" is uncalled for -- Samir धर्म 17:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Jiwani, you, and other others can think whatever you want. The facts of the case do not point to racism. No testimony, no witness alluded to racism. You are trying to push your POV into the article. That's not right! 205.250.1.50 20:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Cite evidence please. As the above shows, the opinion of many is that the facts of the case do point to racism -- Samir धर्म 20:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

How about the fact that the RCMP and the prosecution didn't charge the crime as a hate crime? All of the people above have their opinion and you have yours. You are trying to bring all of that into the article. You and those people are spinning things around to reinforce your own personal prejudice. A white kills a non-white; Oh no racism! Wikipedia is suppose to be neutral. To mention Reena's ethnicity is a sympathy ploy. For it makes no difference; a crime is a crime is crime. Her ethnicity had nothing to do with it anymore then Kelly Ellard being white. Fighting for Justice 20:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe if a lot of people are saying something, it should be in the article? Am I incorrect in thinking that is NPOV? -- Samir धर्म 21:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are incorrect. These people suggest it was racial but that doesn't make it factual. Why is it none of them can reference testimony from the 5 trials on this case? Wikipedia articles should be verified. Jiwani is east-india herself so that hardly makes her neutral. Wikipedia shouldn't be their soapbox. Fighting for Justice 22:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Several peer reviewed articles and several book chapters on the racial aspect of the Virk case, but because they are written by East Indians, it's not verifiable... and a soapbox? That argument is somewhat flawed -- Samir धर्म 22:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the flaw lies in the fact that you believe Virk's ethnicity is notable. It isn't. Look into the Holly Jones article does it say "A Canadian girl of European descent"? No it doesn't. Why should it apply to Virk? just because she's east-indian? I don't think so. That's a double standard. If you want to state her ethnicity it should be in the Reena Virk article. It doesn't need to apply in the Kelly Ellard one. Wikipedia shouldn't have to publish other people's original research. Fighting for Justice 00:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Another flawed argument. It is not at all relevant to put Holly Jones' ethnicity in her article, as the ethnicity has not come into play with respect to her abduction. The same is not true at all for Ellard's attack on Virk. As we are discussing the removal of the ethnicity from the article [15], the onus is to show that race was not a factor in the attacks. That has not been shown from any evidence provided here; the presence of scholarly articles published on the subject in peer-reviewed journals implicates the converse. Virk was of South Asian descent. Several scholarly articles have been published on the subject of ethnicity as a factor in the attack. All facts are verifiable. Several primary sources having implicated race does not constitute WP:OR; it constitutes good referencing. -- Samir धर्म 01:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does constitute original research as it is their personal theory it was race related. However scholarly they may be it is a theory. A very weak theory at best, because witness testimony alluded to revenge. The motive of the crime was revenge. Wikipedia isn't a place to publish other people's theory. They can be educated and smart all you like, it is still wrong to place it here. Big deal that Virk was South Asian; that makes her a bigger victim? No I don't think so. Fighting for Justice 01:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, so you've unilaterally decided that primary sources are invalid without citing any evidence on your side. "They can be educated and smart all you like"? Cite sources to back your claim that race is not a factor in the attack, please. Otherwise, it's your OR to remove "South Asian". -- Samir धर्म 01:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Read Rebecca Godfrey's book "Under the Bridge". Read it front to back and you'll clearly discover it wasn't a hate crime. I don't have to prove a negative. The onus should be on YOU to prove it was racially motivated. Give me a trial transcript some testimony - or something that isn't another person's theory.. It is easy to jump on the racist bandwagon, because the victim was non-white. Ellard wasn't a racist. Ellard was acquainted with the two black girls who participated in the first attack. She was a psycho. A girl she attacked months earlier she was white. Ellard killed Virk to prevent her from going to the police and reporting the first beating. Fighting for Justice 01:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I've read Under the Bridge, thanks. We have scholarly articles advocating the view that race was a determinant in the attack. You haven't refuted that. As such, the fact that Reena Virk was South Asian is a qualifier that adds and not detracts from the Ellard article. This isn't that big of a deal. No one is calling Ellard a racist by inserting Virk's ethnicity into the article. There's enough evidence to support that it was a determinant in Ellard's attack (see links above), and as such, it should be included. I've re-added it -- Samir धर्म 17:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, I have refuted your claims. Look into the external links in the Kelly Ellard article? Who do you think place them there? I did it was a long time ago, but I placed them there nonetheless. The scholars can say the Russian satellite was a determining factor as well. It doesn't make them true. Go to the links; read what the first judge(2000) said in sentencing Ellard in the first trial. Read what another judge says in 2005. They don't mention racism. Reena's ethnicity doesn't make her special. I'm removing the south asian reference. Fighting for Justice 21:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

(de-indent) You most certainly have not refuted anything. External links are not references; and, none of the three EL's indicate that race was not implicated in the attack. I've cited ten scholarly articles above indicating that race was a determinant, which you've chosen to refute with "You and those people are spinning things around to reinforce your own personal prejudice. A white kills a non-white; Oh no racism!", "Big deal that Virk was South Asian; that makes her a bigger victim? No I don't think so.", "The scholars can say the Russian satellite was a determining factor as well", and of course, the winner: "They can be educated and smart all you like, it is still wrong to place it here." Adding Virk's ethnicity adds to the context of the article, and you have not cited a piece of evidence saying that it does not. Be advised that an RfC is coming if you revert this once more -- Samir धर्म 00:20, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well go ahead and bring it on. And may I tell you these essays from the scholars don't exclusively deal with the Virk case. They touch upon it very briefly. It is hardly about Virk. Scholars are not the end-all and be-all of the world. That's pretty sanctimonious of you to believe the scholars know more about this case then the judges, law, prosecution and all the witnesses involved in this case. If people did a lot less compartmentalizing of people this world would have a lot less racism. You and these scholars want to perpetuate racism. Fighting for Justice 03:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

RfC

The question is whether Reena Virk's South Asian ethnicity adds or detracts from the article. I believe that it adds to the context of the article, as there is scholarly evidence implicating race as a determinant in the case. This includes a debate in the BC legislature on bullying in the school system wherein it's argued that race is a motivation in bullying crimes in BC, including the Virk case. I've listed the evidence above, but I've reproduced it here:

• "Racism, Girl Violence and the Murder of Reena Virk" by Sheila Batacharya, Chapter 4 of Girls' Violence: Myths and Realities edited by Anne Worrall and Christine Alder [16] provides an extensive analysis of the role of race as a key determinant in Virk's case: I argue that the only way to understand the murder of Reena Virk, and the media coverage surrounding it, is to question the symbiotic functioning of racism, sexism, classism, ableism and heterosexism that created the context for ... this crime
• Here's a debate from the BC legislature that talks about bullying in the school system, and ties the Virk case to racism: [17] [18]: Statement by L. Mayencourt: It is my hope that in this Legislature we'll have the opportunity to not just talk about racism, sexism and homophobia, but about what it means to a kid, what it means to a parent, what it means to ourselves and our society. Teachers have long lobbied all forms of government on this issue. Parents have come here and spoken to us. Human rights champions have said: "Damn it, you've got to make sure the Human Rights Code applies to kids too"
• A book review published in Canadian Review of American Studies of Rinaldo Walcott's Rude Necessity, a complilation of essays including Tess Chakkalakal’s "Reckless Eyeballing: Being Reena in Canada" that takes as its premise the racial motivations about the attack. [19]. From the review: Tess Chakkalakal’s essay “Reckless Eyeballing: Being Reena in Canada” might also be seen to expose the perilous role that “foreigners” can be forced to play in Canada. Her essay focuses on the 1997 murder of Reena Virk, a South Asian teenager who lived in Victoria, BC. Chakkalakal draws attention to the numerous articles, commentary, and gossip that surrounded and informed the resulting criminal case, as well as the reported verbal abuse that Reena suffered from the teens who murdered her.
• Davina Bhandar, professor of Canadian studies at Trent University has spoken many times about the link of race to the Virk case (here's the link to a talk she gave at UVic) [20]:
• The Canadian Review of Sociology and Anthropology recently published Brown Girls, White Worlds: Adolescence and the Making of Racialized Selves, by M. Rajiva (assistant professor of sociology and criminology at St. Mary's University), citation: The Canadian Review of Sociology and Anthropology, vol. 43, no. 2, pp. 165-183, that talks about the role of race using the Virk case as one example.
• "Crimes of colour: Racialization and the Criminal Justice System in Canada" by Wendy Chan and Kiran Mirchandi: [21] pp. 76-77 talks about Yasmin Jiwani's opinion, and expands on erasure of race and its role in the case: Weeks later, he (Warren Glowatski) told his girlfriend that he had killed an "East Indian" girl whom he had never spoken to, in order to get back at other "East Indians" who had beaten him up
• More from Mirchandi and E. Tastsoglou from Journal of Status in Political Economy (entitled Towards a diversity beyond tolerance): [22], regarding Kinesis: The author of this article notes that the explanations provided for the incident focused primarily on teen-girl violence and there was little acknowledgement of the fact that "Reena Virk died because of racism… The implicit message is that had she been white and thin, she would have fitted in and there would have been no reason for her to be killed."
• Even a Master's thesis from Carleton University from 1998 expounds on racism and the Virk case: [23].
• Transnational Migration And the Politics of Identity edited by Meenakshi Thapan (page 9) discusses racism and the Virk case: a gang of teenage boy and girls in Saanich, B.C. was at the centre of public attention for murdering fourteen-year old Reena Virk, an "overweight" "dark-skinned" girl of "East Indian" origin... All of these inviduated acts of hate made news, distancing the Canadian society at large from them" [24].
• Add to this Dr. Yasmin Jiwani's body of literature: [25] [26] [27] [28], and I think the context of race is quite clear. -- Samir धर्म 03:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
• And at the centre of most of these links is Yasmin Jiwani. Based on her research she believes it was racially motivated. Wikipedia should not have to advocate her POV. Jiwani can be smart and educated, but wikipedia isn't her soapbox. Five trial took place on this case and none of them alluded that racism was a contributing factor. A judge, in 2002, in sentencing Kelly Ellard said it was not racially motivated. This is an example of reverse discrimination. When a white commits a crime against another white is it racism? But why does it have to be racist when a white commits a crime against a non-white. The white person doesn't even have to be a racist. It automatically is racism, because the perp is white. Kelly Ellard was no racist. Putting in Virk's ethnicity is a distraction. It is POV and puts Virk as a more special victim then a white victim. Fighting for Justice 04:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  • No one is calling anyone a racist in this article. You don't seem to understand that there is a body of literature saying that race was a determinant in this case, that there was evidence brought forward that it was, and as such, mentioning Reena Virk's ethnicity (not calling anyone a racist) adds important context to the article -- Samir धर्म 04:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
    • And Yasmin Jiwani didn't debate in the BC legislature, and is not listed as a source in 5 of the above listings -- Samir धर्म 04:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
      • The reference of Ellard being a racist is there but it's done very subtly. The so-called body of literature is a personal theory. Original research and it shouldn't be here.
      • The BC legislature does not say the Virk case is a result of racism. It brings it up as a problem with bullying and that schools need to find a way to deal with it. Give victims of bullies an outlet, so they can talk to somebody. And more importantly, a male student they talk about says he was bullied because of his disability not the color of skin.Fighting for Justice 04:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Read it carefully. Mayencourt talks about determinants of bullying using the Virk case as the example of race-related bullying. -- Samir धर्म 04:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree absolutely with Samir - I think he clinches the point when he stated that since racism was discussed in Canadian media and other circles as a possible influence/motive, that aspect should be briefly explained here. If FJ had simply argued that the article should not imply that KME was racist, I would have agreed with him. Also FJ: I request you to keep a cool head and not to break WP:POINT or WP:CIVIL. With some of your previous statements, Samir would be justified in claiming personal attacks from you. Rama's arrow 13:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is my opinion that stating Virk's ethnicity does imply Ellard is a racist. No rhyme or reason for it. Every time a white commits a crime against a non-white race is the motive. That's reverse discrimination. Fighting for Justice 04:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on "reverse discrimination," but try to understand that it is a fact that many people "think/speculate/suspect" a racist motive. The article must include that some "authorities" do suspect racism, "because <give reasons here, including note of victim's ethnicity>." There also must be references and preferably inline citations. The article, however, should also clarify that this is not proven or established. I certainly agree that no subtle hint or insinuation must be made - keep the language NPOV but don't resort to removing facts. Cheers, Rama's arrow 04:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

All right, well, I will agree that Virk's ethnicity be included so long as it explains the crime was not a hate crime. The way it was worded before, I believe, it did imply it was a hate crime committed by racist. Fighting for Justice 04:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree - no insinuations must be made. Also, the crime should be discussed here with proper references, preferably authoritative/scholarly ones. Rama's arrow 04:47, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, ethnicity has been evaluated as a possible determinant and this should be included in this article. It is unfortunate that Fighting for Justice has resorted to personal attacks and blind reverts in the absence of evidence. This behaviour is unacceptable and, should it continue, I will ensure that this user's actions are appropriately reviewed by another administrator -- Samir धर्म 01:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

POV

(removed inappropriate comment per WP:BLP). 207.102.21.253 23:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• That is the point of wikipedia, if you know other aspects to the story feel free to add them! Jabelar