Talk:Keeley Hawes/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Keeley Hawes. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Bisexuality?

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

I've clarified the comment about her bisexuality - she said it *once* in an interview when she was filming a lesbian-themed movie. Since she's married with three kids, this *probably* falls more in the PR category than it does any deep-seated belief or emotions on her part. I've removed the "Category:Bisexual actors" until/unless she takes on a mistress. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you try to do too much on wikipedia. You must read the references before you make interventions on subjects you are not familiar with. She said in several interviews that she was bisexual. Bisexual people are often married and often have children!! It was not PR - there was absolutely no pressure on her to say anything (you need to justify that assumption) especially to the Radio Times!!!! Perhaps stick to a culture you know about. If I sound testy, it is because you are creating work for other people clearing up in your wake. And the whole tenor of your comment above is patronizing. NIghtjar 16:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Culture that I know about? Please take a look at my userpage before you say things like that. Perhaps you'd like to be a part of WP:LGBT? We'd love to have you! You're right that my comments were patronizing - I'm sorry I wrote in that manner.

Culture - I meant in reference to the Radio Times and the pressure she might be under to make revelations to it (no pressure at all). The show didn't need her to sell it with revelations. NIghtjar (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I never said she was under any pressure. I said it was "PR" - Public Relations - what every studio and actor use to get folks to buy tickets. That doesn't mean she isn't bisexual, it just means she's only said it in that one interview. You keep mentioning a second one, but you keep putting in a reference to a comment on a blog that says someone "seems to remember..." You have to admit, that isn't a reliable source no matter how you stretch it. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 23:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

What I am saying is that you need to understand the context to know that it was not a case of PR Doing something like that for PR - when she considers herself a 'serious actress' in the UK - would be looked down as vulgar in the profession. NIghtjar (talk) 15:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The truth is that I *DID* read the reference provided. I also did a rather thorough search on Google - most tellingly [1]. I found absolutely *NO* reliable sources that state that Hawes is bisexual with the exception of the Rachel Stirling article. The other reference - AfterEllen - is a blog - which is not a reliable source. Believe me - I have no problem with her being bisexual - I welcome it, in fact! But as it stands now, she said it once when doing an interview about the bisexual character she was playing in a movie. Unless a secondary source can be found, that statement is highly suspect and could violate WP:BLP. Can you help me find another source? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

BTW, thank you for all your work on List of bisexual people - I've enjoyed seeing that list grow due to your efforts :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You can't say she hasn't said anything further about her sexuality because you don't know what she has said. She has said it in at least 2 interviews. As it stands it is very uncontroversial. NIghtjar (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Even though Kitty Butler is a cheating tramp, there is nothing more I would like to confirm that Keeley Hawes could play for my team, even part-time. However, after reading the DIVA article, I don't believe that is well-written or well-referenced, and I would like to know how they claim Hawes is bisexual. That sort of thing should have quotes. The afterellen write-up is a reference back to the DIVA article, so I don't believe it should be used. I searched on LexisNexis, ProQuest, GenderWatch, and the BBC website for information on Keeley Hawes' being bisexual, and have discovered nothing so far, beyond her relationship with her first husband and her marriage to her male co-star in Spooks. --Moni3 (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sure that the journalists at Diva magazine will be pleased to hear you say that. Since they talked to KH directly and the words came out of her mouth, I don't know what you want. I am sure youtube videos of her talking in depth about it are fakeable. No one made a big deal about it at the time because it isn't such a big deal in some parts. NIghtjar (talk) 22:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I read the Diva article from the Rachael Stirling site provided as a source. Although that article declares Hawes bisexual, I did not read a quote from Hawes confirming she was, or saying she has slept with/been in love with women in the past. This is the stuff that quotes are really necessary for. Michelle Rodriguez, who has admitted to being bisexual, was interviewed by Curve, where it was splashed all over - Rodriguez is not a lesbian! But since she was on the cover, she was labeled as one and she accused Curve of trying to out her. It's not a matter of what I want personally (that would be Hawes herself, or Stirling, indeed), but rather this interesting concept of verifiability. There should be no question, especially by the LGBT folks on Wikipedia, that who we claim is LGBT - actually is. Our claims are held to higher standards than other claims here. We have to work a bit harder to verify what we've known for a long time, but the quality of the articles definitely isn't hurt by it.

Writing to Diva is a good idea, actually. I might consider that...--Moni3 (talk) 12:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

KH spoke to Diva and the Radio Times. MR never spoke to Curve at all. Curve didn't claim MR was lesbian. It called her a 'bad bi girl'. MR has admitted experimentation, she hasn't said she is bisexual. LGBT should have normal standards - because being LGBT is normal. If someone says in two interviews "I am bi" and doesn't repent, that is enough. And who keeps removing the Radio Times reference from the article? NIghtjar (talk) 12:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You and I believe that being LGBT is normal. Per Wikipedia's policies, though, being LGBT is considered controversial and that information has to be sourced by particularly reliable sources. Believe me, I personally don't care - I'm trying to keep this article within the Biographies of Living People policies. It runs the risk of being deleted if it doesn't adhere.

As for the Radio Times, I can't read the interview, so I have no idea a) what it says and b) how reliable it is. Does it not strike you as odd that the only time(s) she's said anything about being bisexual were during "Tipping"? And that there's absolutely nothing since then? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Reliably sourced statement of sexuality?

Is Hawes' sexuality reliably sourced? Is it important to include? Please see discussion above. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Official Website

I'm being incredibly nit-picky here, but the 'official' website (http://www.keeley-hawes.com) in the infobox is an unofficial website, and that's stated on the site itself. Any chance it can be clarified that it's unofficial or something? :) londonsista | ^Prod 22:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. I moved the link to External links section instead. - TexMurphy (talk) 08:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Relationship with MacFadyen

I don't think she "fell in love" with MacFadyen eight weeks later. There has to be more to it than that, so I've changed the wording. (Quentin X (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC))

British? English? WP:LAME? Racism??

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

I have this article watchlisted although I should probably remove it, but the request for protection got my attention.

What is the difference, to an ignorant American, between English and British? Why would someone make a point to make that distinction? Which leads to why someone would care so much to repeatedly change it in the article. Lo, this article is headed towards the list of the lamest edit wars on Wikipedia. --Moni3 (talk) 13:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree with the WP:LAME comment (despite me being involved in it). To a normal bystander, there is really no difference between English people and British people, aside from the fact that England is part of Britain. It just seems to be that there are some people who will stop at nothing to get their POV across. The article has been "English" for gawd knows how long, so I see no reason to change it. ~~ [ジャム]^[t - c] 13:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Trying to AGF of the dispute, is Hawes (and I will forever try to call her Kitty Butler, that tramp) making a patriotic or nationalist statement by calling herself English? Are all citizens of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the associated territories of the United Kingdom British, and is she making the distinction that she is English? --Moni3 (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that she has ever explicitly said that she prefers English over British. The anon user claims she has made statements regarding her prefer British over English, but unless the anon could source said statements, it would be WP:OR, surely?

Yes, all citizen of the territories you mention are classed as British (although, as far as I'm aware, the Scots normally call themselves Scottish, and the "Northern Irish == British" debate is a bit can of worms...) I think the assumption (and I don't know if there is a policy about this) is to use the area they were born (in this case, England) unless there is a case for using an alternative, which usually requires evidence. ~~ [ジャム]^[t - c] 14:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

On a relevant point, WP:UKNATIONALS, while not a guideline, provides a useful insight into the way of classifying the nationality of people from the United Kingdom. I'm inclined to point out WP:UKNATIONALS#Changing an existing UK nationality, which I believe is relevant in this situation. As I said, it had been English for some time, and I can see no logical reasoning (unless sources arise that prove otherwise) to change it. ~~ [ジャム]^[t - c] 14:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I've just responded to the request for page protection request for this page, and I had to give my 2p. Honestly mates this has got to be one of the most ridiculous cases I've seen in a while. We live in England, which is part of Great Britain. Our passports are British passports. It's silly and I reckon there's better things to do than argue over this. Imagine if she were from California, and the article said she's 'Californian', but not American. Please compromise and get on with a making an encyclopaedia and leave the drama aside chaps. Nja²⁴⁷ 20:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is protected for three days until someone can figure out wtf to put in this article. --Moni3 (talk) 12:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

It is clear this page has been hijacked by English Nationalists, who are usually cut from the same nasty racist cloth. Keeley is a British Subject, this is an International encyclopeadia and she is an internationally famous actress. Nick Griffin will be proud. It will be changed back in 3 days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.136.210 (talk) 15:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Em, no. Unless there's a source saying she prefers to be called British rather than English, there's no reason to change it. English is more specific than British anyway, so that's generally better to use. Thanks! Fin ©™ 16:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Insisting on labeling a British subject as 'English' is deeply disturbing and has very racist undertones, does she also subscribe to White Pride? she is white after all, Estragons (talk) 23:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea wtf you're on about. Why does Sean Connery say he's Scottish, Michael Sheen says he's Welsh, John Simm says English? Are all of those articles racist too? Why on earth is there a problem calling her English when she was born in London? I assume if she was born in Cardiff, it would say Welsh, Edinburgh, it would say Scottish. Thanks! Fin ©™ 15:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The Term British-English is a frequent term in the UK, is used on most government documentation, fits the ethnicity of Ms Hawes and solves this childish edit war with both camps now presumably happy? Continuing by either side now will result in 3RR sanctions!

andi064 ^{T . C} 13:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm her nephew, I just asked what she prefers to be called... English. I told her about these people fighting online about what she likes to be called, and she said 'that is nothing but a label'. I don't think she actually cares, just leave it as it is, whatever it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.100.143 (talk) 12:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

As it stands, it seems we've reached a stable compromise with British-English (not quite sure why we've got the hyphen). ~~ [ジャム]^[t - c] 07:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)