Talk:Kawall's amazon

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus to move. Jafeluv (talk) 12:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

White-cheeked Amazon → Kawall's Amazon — The species has popular name of "Kawall's Amazon", which has been the stable name of this article since the page was started in 2007. If there is no consensus supporting the new name, then the page move should be reverted. Further, white cheeks are not a notable feature of this parrot, so to me "white-cheeked" seems to be a bit of a misnomer. It has bare white skin at the base of its bill, which is not the same as white cheeks. In contrast, the Blue-cheeked Amazon clearly has blue feathers over its cheeks. Snowman (talk) 09:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: After a long discussion at Wikiproject birds a motion was passed 10 to 2 that the IOC name "should be the default position, and that in the cases of no consensus, the name should be at IOC name (that is, for a species to remain at a non-IOC name, there has to be a clear consensus)". This is in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna)#Article title that "If the article is about an animal belonging to a group where Wikipedia editors have agreed on a standard for choosing among two or more common names, follow that standard". -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 13:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This move was contested proving it to be a controversial move and so I believe that it should have been open to discussion outside of the WP Bird talk page with a formal page move discussion. Snowman (talk) 15:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The idea was that contested moves could be discussed after all pages were moved to the IOC names, and that the IOC name "should be the default position, and that in the cases of no consensus, the name should be at IOC name (that is, for a species to remain at a non-IOC name, there has to be a clear consensus)".. So, we can now see if there is a consensus to deviate from the IOC name, in line with the WP:BIRD discussion. If you do not like that motion, I suggest you file a RFC on that as what happens here is in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna). -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 16:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prior to this there was a list of parrot page moves that were contested. Snowman (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Which was supersedes by Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds#Proposal on moving bird names to IOC listing that explicitly states: Thus for all above where consensus is not clear, the name should be moved.. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Forshaw specially says the names White-faced Amazon and White-cheeked Amazon are inappropriate, because it has green cheeks.^[1] I have nominated a name that I think is appropriate, but if there is a specific reason why "Kawall's Amazon" is not appropriate, I would support "White-chinned Amazon", but not "White-cheeked Amazon".Snowman (talk) 19:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

IOC-name. Argument based on coloration is Original research, as WP uses the names used, not what we think is the best for a species.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 13:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Forshaw calls it the White-chinned Amazon. He specifically says that White-cheeked Amazon is an inappropriate name based on simple anatomy, because it has got green cheeks..^[1] The reasons behind this vote appears to be based in ignorance of published facts. Snowman (talk) 19:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My argument was that your argument is original research, as your personal opinion about the white patches at the side of the head are cheeks is irrelevant. Ok, Forshaw agrees with you, and uses a completely unused name. The question is, is there a good argument to use a name different from the WP:BIRD standard of using IOC name? Original research arguments are not. (I will ignore the accusation at the end)-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, my nomination is based on published facts, and not on original research. Is there a better reason for not using the name White-cheeked Amazon than "it has not got white cheeks"? There is a good photograph on flickr of a Kawall's Amazon, and some time ago, I asked the flickr photographer to change the licence, but he declined and so I could not upload it to commons. The white is an zone of bare skin at the base of its beak. Snowman (talk) 20:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know the species, it has been a question mark to me why it was not a separate species in the past when it was still a subspecies as they are obviously different. You wrote in the move request: "Further, white cheeks are not a notable feature of this parrot, so to me "white-cheeked" seems to be a bit of a misnomer. It has bare white skin at the base of its bill, which is not the same as white cheeks." That is your opinion as far as I can tell. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"It has bare white skin at the base of its bill, which is not the same as white cheeks." - This line is clearly a statement of fact and definitely not original research. Snowman (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a statement of fact. The line before that "white cheeks are not a notable feature of this parrot, so to me "white-cheeked" seems to be a bit of a misnomer" is not. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would call that a common sense extrapolation written in a rather conversational style. Anyway, what do you think of the factual part of the nomination? Snowman (talk) 20:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here we go:
The species has popular name of "Kawall's Amazon",

Both names are used, and the species is relative new (described 1989), so the name is also relative new. The species is a relative unknown in aviculture and not established like "African Grey".

which has been the stable name of this article since the page was started in 2007.

Wp history argument to circumvent the motion as described above.

If there is no consensus supporting the new name, then the page move should be reverted.

process argument that ignores the consensus at WP:BIRDS.

Further, white cheeks are not a notable feature of this parrot, so to me "white-cheeked" seems to be a bit of a misnomer.

Already discussed.

It has bare white skin at the base of its bill, which is not the same as white cheeks.

Factual observation, and maybe a good argument to bring to the attention of the IOC.

In contrast, the Blue-cheeked Amazon clearly has blue feathers over its cheeks.

Original research by comparing two species.

In other words, the core is a popularity argument, and the argument is that the popularity of that name should trump an official name. That is not enough in my book, especially because this is a rather unknown species. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~I have not mentioned popularity issues.~~ It is not an aviculture question. The Kuwall's Amazon has got green cheeks.^[1] If you want to support the name "White-cheeked Amazon" for this parrot that has got green cheeks, that is up to you. I think that we have a responsibility to name pages as best as we can for the encyclopaedia. I doubt if I will add anything more to this discussion. Snowman (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You did mention popularity: popular name of "Kawall's Amazon". Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At this juncture I have nothing more to add to this discussion. Snowman (talk) 21:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should reword the request basing it purely on Forshaw's argument? Something like:
Move to "Kawall's Amazon" away from the IOC name because of Forshaw's argument that the name White-cheeked Amazon is a misnomer as the white patch as the side of the beak is not the cheek of the bird. Two alternative names are available. The alternative name White-chinned Amazon proposed by Forshaw is very obscure. A more general used name is "Kawall's Amazon", and that name could function as a good alternative for the anatomically incorrect IOC name.

This leaves out sentences that try to unilaterally overrule the consensus at the WP:BIRD talk page regarding the motion, it does not use popularity as a major argument, and it does not contain personal preferences and observations. At this stage, I am not sure if I would agree with that, but that would make me think about things. The way all these move requests are worded, systematically ignoring what was decided by the whole group of WP:BIRD editors, just because you did not like the motion, is counter productive. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not change your own edits after an editor has replied to it, because this is not in line with wiki guidelines. "Substantially altering a comment after it has been replied to may deny the reply of its original context. It can also be confusing." - from; Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Editing_comments. I have put the sequence of edits in chronological order. This edit by User KinvdLinde was after my closing edit. Snowman (talk) 14:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all. Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is only one to oppose here. Did you realise that the name "White-cheeked Amazon" is anatomically inappropriate according to a specific note in Forshaw.^[1] Snowman (talk) 19:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like you'd have a decent argument for convincing the IOC to change the name. Have you written to them? Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have not written to the IOC. Are you going to support the article name "White-cheeked Amazon" for a parrot that has got green cheeks? Can you access the Forshaw 2006 book? I am not sure what the other Forshaw books say. Snowman (talk) 21:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
happy with IOC name. Maias (talk) 00:11, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Forshaw, Joseph. M (2006). Parrots of the World; an identification guide. Illustrated by Frank Knight. Princeton University Press. 152. ISBN 0691092516. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |nopp= ignored (|no-pp= suggested) (help).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name of page

The IOC changed the name back to the eponymous name in Dec 2009; see IOC updates. The article is now at the eponymous name. Snowman (talk) 16:56, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Festive amazon which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[White-chinned_Amazon_page_in_Forshaw_(2006)-1] Forshaw, Joseph. M (2006). Parrots of the World; an identification guide. Illustrated by Frank Knight. Princeton University Press. 152. ISBN 0691092516. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |nopp= ignored (|no-pp= suggested) (help).

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