Talk:Katherine, Lady Berkeley

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 05:41, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

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Lady Katharine Berkeley

• ... that over 600 years ago, Lady Katharine Berkeley's grammar school is now said to be the first founded by a lay person, the first by a woman (pictured) and the first to be free? Source: "earliest known case, firstly, of a grammar-school foundation by a lay individual, as opposed to a church dignitary or institution; secondly, of a foundation by a woman; and thirdly, of a school of this kind in which tuition was offered freely to all who entered."
  • ALT1:... that after 630 years the first free school in England is named after its founder, Lady Katharine Berkeley (pictured)? Source: "earliest known case, firstly, of a grammar-school foundation by a lay individual, as opposed to a church dignitary or institution; secondly, of a foundation by a woman; and thirdly, of a school of this kind in which tuition was offered freely to all who entered."

• Reviewed: Mary L. Smith (educator)
• Comment: the spelling of her name in the sources and the name of "her" school differs. I have gone here for the spelling used by the school as that is the subject of the hooks

Created by Victuallers (talk). Self-nominated at 13:47, 26 March 2021 (UTC).

• Article recent and long enough, as well as interesting hook. No copyvios detected. As a small change, I have changed the "grammar" first letter to a lower case one. "Non-profit" could also be considered instead of "free", if needed, but overall both the article and the hook have a good quality. --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:36, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

• Victuallers, the grammar of the ALT0 hook is pretty convoluted. Could we tweak it to read:

• ALT2 ... that Lady Katharine Berkeley's grammar school, established over 600 years ago, is said to have been the first founded by a lay person and a woman, and the first to have been free?

Also, there is no real indication of who/what the source is for this statement. It's just an archived website with no indication of who wrote it.MeegsC (talk) 11:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

The change you suggest is OK but the meaning has changed as she was the first lay person AND the first woman, not the first lay woman. However I do not want to end up with a debate and what you suggest is factually accurate-ish.... although again there may have been much earlier schools founded by women that are not extant, we also lost the pictured. Victuallers (talk) 12:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

I also rechecked the source you re-questioned. Its from http://tyndale.org/. I think wiki is not really bothered about who wrote it but who is overseeing the postings (eg A New York Times article with no author quoted) http://tyndale.org/ looks pretty academic to me. The author is named as David Green, July 2000 and the conference he presented it at is also named. Victuallers (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay. I don't see where saying "first founded by a lay person and a woman" reads "first founded by a lay woman", but whatever. I wouldn't want to make your hook less accurate, so I think I'll just let someone else promote this one with your hook. MeegsC (talk) 19:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I have the issue that all the hooks are about a school with its own article, not the actual bio subject. If there is nothing to say about this woman than she founded a school, the article should be merged, so I expect a more relevant hook to come. Kingsif (talk) 20:50, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Addressing your point - I have removed reference to any particular school. This is a notable woman and this has caused a school to be named after her because she created the idea of a free school. Try Alt3 and 4 Victuallers (talk) 08:09, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Alt3... that the first founder of a free-to-use English school was Lady Katharine Berkeley (pictured)?Source: "earliest known case, firstly, of a grammar-school foundation by a lay individual, as opposed to a church dignitary or institution; secondly, of a foundation by a woman; and thirdly, of a school of this kind in which tuition was offered freely to all who entered."
• Alt4... that bilingual landowner Lady Katharine Berkeley helped to create more Latin clerks after many were lost to the Black Death? "...stimulus to the action of the Lady Katherine, the supply of new clerks being vital."

Pinging @NoonIcarus: but I like both of those. Kingsif (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kingsif: Thanks! I have to join and say I like both hooks as well. I believe I found the fourth hook's text in Tyndale's reference ("...the supply of new clerks being vital."), but my only recommendation would be to include it next to the hook just to be safe. --NoonIcarus (talk) 19:36, 29 April 2021 (UTC) Done? Victuallers (talk) 13:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@NoonIcarus: Has the ref been done (so tick can be reinstated?) Kingsif (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Ref is already at the end of the hook sentence. This is good to go. MeegsC (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)