Talk:Karlal

Confusion with article

Is this a Pashtun tribe? If not, what are they? What language do they speak? Do they live only in Pakistan? I can't figure it out, the what links here seems to imply that they are Pashtun, but I don't want to add it. I'll check what the rest of the interweb has to say about it. Dina 15:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

They are not Pashtun, the link to "Federally Administered Tribal Areas" was incorrect, FATA is on the opposite side of the North West Frontier Province and borders Afghanistan.

The Karlal inhabit the eastern part of NWFP, in what used to be the Hazara division of the NWFP, this area was made up of the following districts Abbottabad, Batagram, Haripur, Kohistan and Mansehra.

See the map below: Hazara is area 1 in, whilst FATA is area 7.

This area borders Punjab and Kashmir and the culture and language here is markedly different from that further east.

The Karlal speak Hindko which is widely spoken in the eastern parts of NWFP and bordering areas. Pahari Sahib 02:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

hi there can you please let me know if i can get my hands on the book from Badhar Khan TARIH-E-HAZARA online PLEASE it will mean alot to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.156.34 (talk) 01:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

References

Dear Wikipedia, I have made several edits to this and other articles and regarding this particular article on Karlal, I believe very sincerely that the list of 'Notable people' given here is too long and not really needed--only thos people should be listed here who have separate Wiki entries of their own. However, someone keeps reverting my edit and I would be grateful for neutral assisstance in this regard, thanks. 39.54.104.80 (talk) 08:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

I have now asked the editor who kept reverting my changes at talk, to kindly try to see my position too, as this isnt about 'winning ' or 'losing' but about improving Wikipedia articles in line with accepted standards; and I have also given my reason/s for shortening/abbreviating the said list in this article. I would also please request that neutral/objective editors kindly help in setting up some sort of mechanism or uniform standard, relating to all these long and needless lists that are given on many pages/articles regarding Pakisatni tribes and families etc. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A DIRECTORY. This basic rule of thumn should please, please, be kept in mind at all times. Thank you. 39.54.104.80 (talk) 08:24, 13 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

Dear Wikipedia, someone has again added a long and unverified list of 'Karlal' tribe people here, inlcudsing many who dont have any Wikipedia articles of their own. I am removign again and reporting this too, please. 39.54.66.255 (talk) 06:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

• I think this person has been helped. Shearonink (talk) 00:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear Wikipedia, I dont understand whats goin on here--I have been helping edit some Wikipedia articles/pages of my interest from time to time, but this situation seems rather bizarre. I kep removing some names from a long list (pl see my earlier talk above) and I have also written to Karlal about this and requested him, and all others who might be interested in this article, to please discuss this matter heer on this talk page. But semingly, to no avail so far. I always assume good faith and i still suppose its due to some misunderstanding on the part of some ditor/s who arent familiar with Wiki basics, but after all, Wikipedia isnt a Directory and I would v much request help from some 3rd/neutral paty or an experienced senior editor, in resolving this matter. Thanks 39.54.66.255 (talk) 06:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

I would like to chime in here; I'm not an administrator nor do I have specific knowledge of the Karlal, but I have worked on this article in the past. 39.54.x.x is absolutely right. The long list of people without Wikipedia articles should not be restored. I have previously tried to keep the list limited to people who seemed to have a "reasonable claim" to notability, but I agree that the best principle to follow is to include only those people who have Wikipedia articles that are backed up by reliable sources. Other notable Karlal people could potentially have articles about them, but the article ought to exist first before the person is added to the Karlal article. Just for the record, it looks as if I restored the list of people at some point, which was certainly not my intention! --bonadea contributions talk 18:00, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I took the liberty of moving the comment about the people in the list having Wikipedia articles to an invisible comment, that shows up when somebody edits the section. That way, readers of the article are not distracted by irrelevant (to them) comments directed at editors. --bonadea contributions talk 18:26, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear All, Karlal is not pashto speaking tribe, their forefather kalar shah was form saka tribe(for reference read "tareekh-e-bani ase").And the list of notable karlal is correct. so plz don't remove it.

Dear Unidentified user, hello. If you wish to add some information regarding the historical origins and descent of the Karlal --which as you rightly point out, are of non-Pushtun and probably Saka/Scythian roots, PLEASE ADD THIS INFORMATION ALONG TO THE MAIN TEXT OF THIS ARTICLE, AND ALSO GIVE SOURCES/RELEVANT REFERENCES THEREIN. Please dont add to the names list as we are already trying to reduce it and keep it within reasonable bounds thank you. 39.54.120.233 (talk) 09:22, 16 March 2012 (UTC)Asad U Khwaja

ATTENTION " Mr Nasar Karlal at http://nasar_karlal.blogspot.com -- you may ONLY add proper citations and/or references to the 'Reflist' via the main article text (inline citations) and please, do not add your Blog site here. If you wish you may add this to the 'Further References' section or add an 'External Links' and put it there. Please remember, we are trying here, jointly, to improve this page relating to your tribe and bring it gradually in line with Wiki standards. Thank you 39.54.120.233 (talk) 09:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

Please note that the nasir-karlal.blogspot.com is not an appropriate external link per Wikipedia's external links policy, and it should not be added anywhere in the article. Blogspot.com websites are almost never appropriate to add. This particular blog only contains a copy of an old version of the Wikipedia page, and so it per definition does not add anything to the article. --bonadea contributions talk 22:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear Bonadea, thank you, you are right I think and it is as you say--the blog shouldnt be added/listed in the article per se. Regs 39.54.60.236 (talk) 05:32, 17 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

Also, dear Bonadea, thank you for your kind support on the matter of the listing of names of 'notable' people in this article--I assume good faith and thats ok, if you inadvertently removed (and then later restored) the list. I must also reiterate here, please, that as per Wikipedia standards, we must be particulary careful that even at some later stage, articles on supposedly notable Karlals arent exclusively created for the purpose of entry here-- some proper system for notability and verifiabiity and standardization of article/s quality must be agreed upon via consensus and adherd to please. Othwerwise, if we allow a precedent of this sort, then we will surely have a whole host of tribes and clans in Pakistan rushing to follow suit and make articles of many supposedly 'notable' people and then add them to tribal/clan lists here--the whole purpose of Wikipedia as a serious reference work would be subsumed and it would ultimately end up becoming a mere compendium for vanity/self-promotion, in the WikiProject Pakistan pages/articles at least. I also believe that we, as Wiki editors for Pakistanrelated pages should also arrive at some sort of general consensus of what in fact constitutes 'notability' and set parameters for this, in future articles of a biographical type. I dont know how you feel about this but would be glad for your input please. 39.54.60.236 (talk) 05:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)Prof Asad U Khwaja

With ref to my previous comments, and of other editors/users including User:bonadea, I must sadly say that problems with this particular article persist-mainly:

• There are many unverified statements, some of them in my view, of very doubtful sort, and there were no references at all. I have added one. Yet, I feel the article is not really reliable.

• In addition, there is disputable material here, am sorry, which I think consists of puffery/self or 'tribal' promotion and some of the statements are quite vain.

• Probably most problematic of all, once again, a long list of 'notable' people has been added and I do really believe that there MUST please be some sort of basic criteria set up for notability and proper verifiability, especially for all these tribes, clans etc on WP Pakistan related articles/pages, where this sort of 'directory service' or use, seems to be the norm, inspite of repeated requests to desist-- at least, please, the 'notable' people should have proper articles (not just hasty stubs) of their own, or some similar condition/s. Else, its an uphill task constantly going over same ground, again and again.

• Finally, due to the editing of this article by (probably) 'many hands', it has become a very mixed up sort of document, with very poor basic expression/style and lots of confusion, and repetition etc. Of course, I fully appreciate that Wikipedia is open for all, and I value this. I also assume entirely that all the edits have been made in good faith by well-meaning people--even the readdition of long lists of 'notables' is simply an expression of a basic, human desire for public recognition, to quite an extent. But somehow, some semblance of improvement/development of the articles on Wikipedia must or should be evident, in time, no? There is a retrogression here I regret.

I hope that someone will please notice this and try to follow or at lest recognise what Im driving at. Many thanks and good wishes, AsadUK200 (talk) 16:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)AsadUK200

It is certainly worth adding here, by the way, please, that regarding the notability issue, some sort of general consensus was achieved here on this talk page in March 2012, whereby I think it was agreed that ONLy people with already exisiting, full, proper articles on Wikipedia, would or should be added? If this was indeed the case, then i would again reuest all editors to kindly respect this, many thanks. AsadUK200 (talk) 16:30, 25 April 2012 (UTC)AsadUK200

Hello, this article does not give any proper references at all. It seems to be largely based on totally unsupported speculation. (Col Mumtaz, Pakistan) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.54.70.29 (talk) 11:02, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I wish to point out that someone added some false and unverified information and linked it to the references I had given, previously, linking to the Karlal tribe's indigenous Hindu origins. How can this sort of thing be allowed to go on? Some serious notice should be taken of this, thanks. 39.54.64.97 (talk) 19:27, 23 May 2014 (UTC)Col (r) Mumtaz , Pakistan

Hallo, once again some one has vandalised this page. I had given the correct citations linking the Karlals to their ancestor Sardar Kallar Singh but someone again changed /tampered with this and tried to link the original citations with some fictitious 'Kallar Shah'. Please, cant some serious measures be taken to check this? Thanks 39.54.27.20 (talk) 01:47, 12 June 2014 (UTC) Col (r) Mumtaz Khan

Mr.Mumtaz Khan, the so called "refference" you copy pasted was of no help as It did not state that karlals decend from kallar singh. From the books I have read, I have found out that their forefather kalar shah was form saka tribe(for reference read "tareekh-e-bani ase") and was not Kallar Singh (if that is even a real man). Also, I have seen and visited Kalar Shah's grave so I can gurantee you that this is no "fictious" charachter. Thank you for trying so hard to "help" though.

Dear anonymous user, hello. I can assure you that the latest research in the citations that I have given (and which you or someone else tried to link to your false claims) conclusively shows that there is NO 'Kallar Shah' and never was, and that the grave that you mention, is in fact a later forgery and not at all the grave of the person whose it claims to be. Omamney states decisively, for example, that in fact there WAS a historical person who was called Sardar Kallar Singh, who was of Rajput origins, and who converted to Islam probably--or his offspring did. Maybe the grave is of this person? Or of his son or some descendant? Im afraid you seem to have been reading the wrong sort of books, or outdated ones. Sometimes, some people from tribes etc also decide to 're write' their history to suit their own selves, and produce their own so-called 'history books'? Maybe you read some of these fallacious works? I understand you wish to make useful and positive edits and I assume faith in this, but the hard fact is, that there was no Kallar Shah and the version I have given is probably more accurate fact. I have however tried to reflect your point of view too, below, in the notes. Regards, 39.54.47.194 (talk) 17:09, 13 July 2014 (UTC)Col (retd) Mumtaz Khan

Let me make it clear first that Im not a karlal, Im a jadun. Major Wace writes of the Dhund and Karral : "Thirty years ago their acquaintance with the Muhammadan faith was still slight, and though they now know more of it, and are more careful to observe it, relics of their Hindu faith are still observable in their social habits."

Note that he wrote this in the 1830s, claiming that the Karlals recently converted to Islam, mostly around 1750. This, however, is a lie. Like omamney, this isnt factually correct either, the whites considered abbasis and the karlals to be of similar ancestry but the wikipedia page for Abbasis does not state that the Abbasis are of Hindu Rajput origin. I can present you with family trees of different Karlals which go back to the 15th century and you will not find hindu names on the family tree. The colonial Britishers were not completely correct when it came to tracing the tribal lineage of different tribes. They even claimed that the jaduns, a pukthun tribe even present in Afghanistan, to be as of a Gujarati, Indian descend and to have migrated to Hazara from India when the jaduns migrated from Afghanistan to Hazara. Karlals DNA y haplogroup is R2 a L295 (different than the Rajputs). The 2006 study by Sanghamitra Sengupta has some Y-DNA data on the Rajputs. Which is as followed;

5/28 = 17.8% H1–M052 1/28 = 3.57% H-M069 9/28= 32.14 % R1a1-M017 1/28 = 3.57% C5-M356 3/28 = 10.71% J2b2-M241 1/28= 3.57% J2a-M410 2/28 = 7.14% L3-M357 1/28= 3.57% F*-M089/M213 1/28 = 3.57% J1-M267 4/28= 14.28% R2- M124

I suggest you do more research on the genealogy of rajputs and then compare it to the karlals.

My dear sonny, I have done a lot of research on this topic over the last 30-40 years, now. And in recent years, I have read and researched in great detail DNA-linked origins too. Staring with the seminal work of Qureshi, Nichols etc al (1999), via a whole range of such studies relating to South Asian people, also including Sengupta, s et al (2006) and Sengupta and Theseema, (2009), where they also revise and look in detail at some other races etc too. Some points for your consideration please, honestly and objectively, please: (a) the 2006 study is summarised and concluded thus: Although considerable cultural impact on social hierarchy and language in South Asia is attributable to the arrival of nomadic Central Asian pastoralists, genetic data (mitochondrial and Y chromosomal) have yielded dramatically conflicting inferences on the genetic origins of tribes and castes of South Asia. We sought to resolve this conflict, using high-resolution data on 69 informative Y-chromosome binary markers and 10 microsatellite markers from a large set of geographically, socially, and linguistically representative ethnic groups of South Asia. We found that the influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000-15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region. Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus and with significant genetic input resulting from demic diffusion associated with agriculture. Our results underscore the importance of marker ascertainment for distinguishing phylogenetic terminal branches from basal nodes when attributing ancestral composition and temporality to either indigenous or exogenous sources. Our reappraisal indicates that pre-Holocene and Holocene-era--not Indo-European--expansions have shaped the distinctive South Asian Y-chromosome landscape. This signifies that, POSSIBLY, many tribes/peoples of South Asia including Rajputs , had nomadic Central Asian roots/origins (b) it also posits that, there are a very diverse range of people/tribes falling within the ambit of the L-M20, L-M76 etc groups (and subsequently the R2 sets) and (c) that at times, races as diverse as some hill Rajput clans and tribes/clans in Kashmir, Ladakh, Nepal etc, also have linkages to tribes in Northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, in larger South Asian contexts. Might I ask, here, what is your source for the DNA that you cite for the Karlals? I have found absolutely no reliable evidence at all, anywhere, online or offline, of any such study. In the final analysis, it seems to me again, that much that has been written and studied so far, from the 19th c onwards, is part of ongoing efforts, and we can only speculate generally/broadly, not make fixed assumptions. On this basis, I have tried to amend the article and make it as balanced and objective, as possible--reflecting various possible threads and theories. Regards, 39.54.126.79 (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)Col (r) Mumtaz

Mr. Mumtaz Khan, I am currently in touch with Sardar Aurangzeb kralall (via email) who is the president of kralall Federation. He is a geologist by profession and has been taking active part in Pakistani politics and has also contested national and provincial assembly election in 2008 as an independent candidate from the constituency of NA 18 Abottabad 11 and PF 47. He is also going to publish a book titled "kralall the Edomite" soon as per him, with a lot of references. He has provided me with the following information,

a) Ancestors of Kral Shah (Sometimes reffered to as Kalar Shah):

  Sultan Soujan Shah( Father of Kral Shah),
  Sultan AbdulRahman (Grandfather of Kral Shah),
  Sultan Mahmoud Shah (Great grandfather of Kral Shah),
  Tulochan Shah (Kral Shahs second great grandfather),
  Brouchar Shah (Kral Shahs third great grandfather),
  Sha Jahan Rumi (Kral Shah's fifth great grandfather),
  Sultan Badrudine (Kral Shah's sixth great grandfather),
  Sultan Sadrudin (Kral Shah's seventh great grandfather),
  Sultan Zainuabdein (Kral Shah's eight great grandfather),
  Kour Sha (Kral Shah's ninth great grandfather),
  Kuwaid Sha (Kral Shah's tenth great grandfather),
  Sha Ganjais Ganj (Kral Shah's eleventh great grandfather),
  Rijainas (Kral Shah's twelfth great grandfather),
  Sumagainnas (Kral Shah's thirteenth great grandfather),
  Askayness (Kral Shah's fourteenth great grandfather)
 

b) Descendants of Kral Shah:

  Sardar Mall Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's son),
  Sardar Ladheer Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's grandson),
  Sardar Jekar Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's great grandson),
  Sardar Sareer Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's second great grandson),
  Sardar Pehlay Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's third great grandson),
  Sardar Makoon Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's fourth great grandson),
  Sardar Bani Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's fifth great grandson),
  Sardar Pelay Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's sixth great grandson),
  Sardar Rajang Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's seventh great grandson),
  Sardar Waisra Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's eight great grandson),
  Sardar Fujo Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's ninth great grandson),
  Sardar Amanat Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's tenth great grandson),
  Sardar Sha Doulat khan Kralall (Kral Shah's eleventh great grandson),
  Sardar Ghazni Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's twelfth great grandson),
  Sardar Lashkari Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's thirteenth great grandson),
  Sardar Sha Alam Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's fourteenth great grandson),
  Sardar Gulbaz khan Kralall (Kral Shah's fifteenth great grandson),
  Sardar Ghairat Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's sixteenth great grandson),
  Sardar NOubat Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's seventeenth great grandson),
  Sardar Lashkari Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's eighteenth great grandson),
  Sardar Abdula Khan Kralall (Kral Shah's nineteenth great grandson),
  Sardar Muhtaar Khan (Kral Shah's twentieth great grandson), 
  

Sardar Muhtaar Khan the had 3 sons, Sardar Sooba Khan(Migrated from Changra Kashka To Nara in 1821 when Sikh Governor Majaithi singh was killed by Karlal tribe in Sumandar Katha), Sardar Shair Khan(resided in Chamnaka )and Sardar Khani Zaman(was living in Baghra). Sardar Sooba Khan then had 4 sons who were Sardar Ali Khan, Sardar Said Mohammand Khan, Sardar Mohammad Khan, and Sardar Anaitulla Khan. Sardar Ali Khan then had 5 sons who were Sardar Qalandar Khan, Sardar sikandar Khan, Sardar Gulzaman Khan, Sardar Ali Zaman Khan and Sardar Aburehman Khan. Sardar Ali Zaman has 3 sons Sardar Mohammad Anwar(PROGRESS OFFICER MINISTRY OF PETROLEUM AND NATURAL RESOURCES PAKISTAN), Sardar Aurangzeb (PRESIDENT ALL PAKISTAN KALARALL FEDRATION,GEOLOGIST EX.DIRECTOR IN K D B CABINANT DIV.EX GEOLOGIST IN SARHAD DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY NWFP SPECIALIZED IN GOLD AND OTHERS STRETIGIC MINERALS FROM AUSTRAILIA AFTER POST GRADUATION IN GEOLOGY MSC(GEOLOGY)PAKISTAN DISCOVERED VARIOUS ECONOMIC AND MOST VALUABLE MINERALS IN NWFP PAKISTAN AND ALSO WRITTEN BOOKS/REPORTS ON MINERALS AND ROCKS) and Sardar Ghulam Mustafah (DEPUTY SUPERINTENDENT OF POLICE ISLAMABAD AND POST)

Now once again, I would like to stress on the fact that Major Wace writes (in 1830s of the Dhund and Karral) : "Thirty years ago their acquaintance with the Muhammadan faith was still slight, and though they now know more of it, and are more careful to observe it, relics of their Hindu faith are still observable in their social habits." Note that he wrote this in the 1830s, claiming that the Karlals recently converted to Islam, mostly around 1750 which is far away from the truth as the Karlal family tress shows (Now I do not think they would change the names of their own forefathers to support there claims now would they? It is highly unlikely that a person would change the name of his/her forefathers).

Furthermore, Sardar Aurangzeb Khan added, "We are the descendants of Kral, sometimes refereed to as Kalar. Our DNA kit number is 59069, please check for confirmation. Moreover I have my family tree DNA and soon, my book the Krall Edomite will also be published a with lot of references. Therefore I request that no one claims anything without proper knowledge about our ancestors".

He also states that the forefathers of todays Karlals came from Takht-e-Kalar, Iran (See google map Iran) to India in the early 13th century (in iltumash reign) during the Mongol Invasion and were made the Sardars of the area by the Delhi Sultanate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.51.191.77 (talk) 11:56, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I am karlal from qasala galyat and i attest to the names given i asked my old mother and she rocognized few names one of them sardar qalandar khan karlal her nana fought with qalandar Khan due to some inner 182.177.54.121 (talk) 08:29, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Non notable names

Please, I strongly request that non- notable names (of people without already existing Wikipedia articles of their own) should not be added here, thanks. 39.54.204.218 (talk) 15:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)Col (r) Mumtaz Khan Pakistan

Dear brother Mumtaz we know better about our father instead of Britisher Wace who was aggressor and they always start their family tree with the name of mother not father therefore we alhamdulilah know about our ancestors my son who is 14 years old and remember the names of 27 of our elders i mean father grand father and so on by-heart we are the tribal people and know about our family values and one thing which is very important and its in Hadith that Prophet Muhammad PBUH said the person who change their father or tribe is not among us it mean he will never enter in to jun-nah i wrote what i heard from my father and my father from his father which more authentic and we have our poslay who never take the names of our forefathers with out Ablution (whudho) i wrote a book with the help of DNA the dna research was done by American not done in India or Pakistan please refer dna kit no 59069 and we are Edomites the sons of Hadhrat Easu the twind brother of Hazrat Yaqub the sons of Hadhrat Isaaq Allai Islam our father kral sha came from Anatolia in 1200 via khorasan to subcontinent the kral mean the king its turkish macedonian and german name mean the king and we are kral-all (all mean The sons ).Our family tree is with us which we preserved from centuries and its updated with passage of time.In my book i gave lot of references and Insha Allah it will be soon published meanwhile if you are interested to read about tribe please read the book in urdu by sardar iqbal titled kralall bani easu . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.47.123.76 (talk) 04:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

More non notable names

Hello, just a note to inform that I have today again removed a non notable name from the list of 'Notable names'. Please, every editor should keep in mind/remember-- DONT ADD NON NOTABLE NAMES, only names of people with already existing Wikipedia articles should be added. ThanksKhani100 (talk) 20:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)Khani100

Hi, see the various previous notes above. I removed some more non-notable names but some stupid 'Bot' readded them and sent me a message. Only those names should be added please that have already exisiting Wikipedia articles. Thanks 39.54.188.162 (talk) 16:35, 21 April 2016 (UTC)Col (r) Mumtaz Khan

Sourcing

I have just had to remove a bunch of sources from this article, mostly because they date from the British Raj era. The issue of whether of not such sources are reliable has been tested time and again at all sorts of venues, including WP:RSN. The consensus has for many years been that they are not and, as such, we should not use them, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 15:38, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, section headings should usually follow the guidance given at WP:MOSHEAD, which includes issues relating to capitalisation. - Sitush (talk) 19:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 September 2017

Repeated vandalism by removing credible primary and secondary sources and locking the page from edits. Who is responsible for this and who gets to decide what one can edit and not edit? Wikipedia is a community page. This is highly unacceptable. Shoaiborakzai90 (talk) 18:50, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

See the section immediately preceding this one. - Sitush (talk) 19:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2017

The page had correct history before some of the last edits, include the history during different delhi empires as it was included before the vandalised edits, moderators should take a look at the previous cited history and the edits, including history about takhtekalaar, sardar kalar shah and others. Sardar Ali Tyb ehmd (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. –Ammarpad (talk) 08:12, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2017

Tyb ehmd (talk) 15:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:26, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Genetic studies

Consensus has long been that we avoid genetic studies in articles about individual castes and tribes. This is for a host of reasons - I can probably dig them out from some other thread if someone really objects. - Sitush (talk) 08:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

An example is here. - Sitush (talk) 08:22, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Karlal

Karlal is a tribe that lives in Hazara division KPK Pakistan.It is a well known caste and also known as Sardar 182.177.229.42 (talk) 16:50, 15 December 2023 (UTC)