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Talk:Karl Bolle (flying ace)

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Appears to go to an unrelated Max Muller re: WW1 ace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.221.15.132 (talk) 12:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Linkage corrected, to point to Max Ritter von Muller, WWI ace.

Georgejdorner (talk) 04:30, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pour le Merite

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He is not listed on the wikipedia page which includes all recipients. Thus the "Bolle in Command" reference is doubtful. K5okc (talk) 17:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bolle is indeed a Blue Max winner, receiving it on 28 August 1918, per http://www.pourlemerite.org/.

Georgejdorner (talk) 04:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:32, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References to Karl Bolle (not Carl Bolle)

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  • Franks, Norman; Bailey, Frank W.; Guest, Russell (1993). Above the Lines: The Aces and Fighter Units of the German Air Service, Naval Air Service and Flanders Marine Corps, 1914–1918. Oxford: Grub Street. ISBN 978-0-948817-73-1.
  • Franks, Norman; Giblin, Hal (2003). Under the Guns of the Kaiser's Aces: Böhme, Müller, Von Tutschek, Wolff: the Complete Record of Their Victories and Victims. London UK: Grub Street Publishing. ISBN 978-1-904010-02-9.
  • Hart, Peter (2005). Bloody April: Slaughter in the skies over Arras, 1917. London UK: Orion Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-3043-6719-1.
  • Head, Peter (2016). Oswald Boelcke: Germany's First Fighter Ace and Father of Air Combat. London UK: Grub Street Publishing. ISBN 978-1-910690-23-9.

and a raft of others.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:50, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but modern English-language sources are hardly authorative in regard to the question of the proper spelling of a German name in the 19th century. Both spelling variants "Carl" and "Karl" were common back then in Germany (and they still exist today, but Karl is the prevalent one for a number of decades), so this often got mixed up.
For something authorative you will have to look up his birth or death certificates, or check what's written on his grave: This source ([1]) has a photo of his tombstone in Hamburg-Blankenese stating "Carl Bolle 20.6.1893 9.10.1955 Berlin"[2]. He was also a namesake and the grandson of Carl Bolle (entrepreneur) [de], the founder of Diary C. Bolle [de] (origin of the later supermarket chain Bolle (supermarket) [de]) and several other companies.
We had this discussion in the German Wikipedia as well. Sure, we should have a redirect from "Karl Bolle (flying ace)" to "Carl Bolle (flying ace)", but for historical correctness the article should be under the historical correct spelling of his name.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this dispute would be best handled by a RFC.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:22, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

{{rfc|style}} As can be seen by the discussion above, there is a debate concerning Bolle's first name. As I am a monolingual American, I used English language sources, which opt for Karl. Matthiaspaul (talk objects on grounds the first name should Carl. I should note he is bilingual in English and German. As I see it (and I hope this is neutral enough), the conflict is whether we use an English or German first name. So we have a tiny tempest in a teapot here. Outside opinion(s) would be helpful.Georgejdorner (talk) 21:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I would just call it a quest to find the best possible solution. As an encyclopedia we have the duty to present our contents as accurately as possible, and, at least to me, this implies that (if known) we should faithfully reproduce the actual name of a person unless there are very strong reasons not to do so (like when the actual name would be written in a non-Latin script, would be unpronounceable in English, or if only one particular spelling variant would be used throughout the literature). We can find English (and also German) sources calling him Carl or Karl, so if we wouldn't seek for perfection (or wouldn't write an encyclopedia), probably either variant would do. (Sometimes, it might not even be possible to tell which of several spelling variants found in third-party sources is the most accurate one.) However, in this case, we are lucky to have found a photo of his tombstone clearly indicating his actual name as "Carl Bolle" - not "Karl Bolle". I consider this to be almost as authorative as his birth certificate (which might still be available in some archive in Germany) and it is one of the cases, where, I think, a primary sources is more relevant than a third-party one as it rules out transmission errors. The authors of those third-party sources spelling his name as Karl probably never saw this photo, were relying on other sources also misspelling his name (the newer ones possibly even this Wikipedia article), or didn't care much about faithful reproduction of a name. But knowing better now, why shouldn't we switch to use the correct spelling of his name? We'd follow many other examples (such a Erwin Böhme, Max Müller or Wilhelm Reinhard) where we use the proper original spelling as well and not some modernized form, transliteration (like Boehme or Mueller) or a translation of the name (like Ervin, Miller or William).
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 17:38, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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