Talk:Karen people

rm of History section

I removed the following passage, whose expression is rather too POV for inclusion here; the information contained therein needs to be sourced, referenced, and re-written in a more encyclopaedic tone:

During WWII the British approached the Karen and proposed that in exchange for their assistance and aid against the Burmese, when the war ended they would be named as a specific tribe people who deserved an area (state) of land for themselves. However, when the war ended, the British made a list of native people along the Thailand/Burma border who deserved land named specifically for the tribe, yet they forgot to name the Karen as one of the peoples. Therefore, the Burmese turned their anger against the Karen for their betrayal, so the Karen sought protection in across the border of Thailand. The Thai, however, do not see the Karen as people deserving of Thai citizenship, so when they are caught, they are sent back to the center of Burma... where the Karen villages are pillaged and the people brutally murdered by the Burmese Army. As of now the Karen people attempt to survive in the remote areas on border between Thailand and Burma, struggling to survive the attacks by the Burmese Army and evade discovery by the Thai border police. They live lives haunted by murder, rape, and replacement. They do not have a country to call their own, as the Burmese will kill them if they are found and the Thai will not accept them, and there are too many people to count hiding, establishing horrible negotiations with the Thai border police in order to survive. There are thousands of people whose births have never been recorded and whose deaths have never been documented. There is an entire race of people living in rancid conditions without any real evidence that they even exist.

--cjllw | TALK 06:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Suppression of religion

Since ethnic cleansing had already been mentioned without objection, I've added a sentence referring to the suppression of religion by the Burmese government, with citation. I also added to the external references links to reports by the State Dept.

Te section on Karen and Buddhism shows cultural anthropoligists' inability to read "yes" as an non-affirmative answer. When Asian are asked if they are Buddhist, they say "yes", when they're asked if they're Christian, they say "yes". "Yes" means: yes, these are relgions; I know these religion, and I'm not going to say anything about them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.163.225.144 (talk) 05:42, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Language classification

While some older groupings had Karenic as its own branch in Sino-Tibetan, it is now considered to belong to the Tibeto-Burman group. Also, the claim that Karen and Bai are the only Sino-Tibetan languages with SVO order is false on its face—see almost any SInitic language for a counterexample. Ergative rlt 00:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

SVO and influence

While an independent innovation of SVO order is possible, all sources on the Karen languages that I've seen give either Mon and Tai contacts as a likely source for that order, or do not speculate at all on its origin. A source for scholars of Karen who support independent innovation would be useful. Also, note that traditional histories of a language do not necessarily have anything to do with the history of the language as theorized or determined by linguists. Ergative rlt 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

"Thai Karen" or "Hill Tribe" silver

On eBay, there is a flourishing cottage industry selling "Thai Karen" or "Hill Tribe" silver jewelry and silver beads. If deemed relevant, I would love to see a brief mention of this phenomenon and ensuing details, within this article. --Peri1013 03:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Karens and the British Colonial Policy

This may have to take under consideration when describing the relations between the ethnic minorities in Burma. " A demand by the Burmese government for a higher proportion of Burmans in the ( then British controlled ) armed forces caused the Governor Sir Reginal Dorman - Smith to form two territorial battalions. But this did not satisfy Burman aspirations, and consequently Burman companies were formed and included in the Burma Rifles, which had previously been recruited solely from Chins, Kachins, and Karens - generally considered more martial races. " As told by Late Brigadier Sir John Smyth Bt, VC, MC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.92.186 (talk) 20:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Does it even seem plausible, a dead colonialist's opinion notwithstanding, that a less martial race has waged so many wars of expansion in the region, established empires over the centuries and above all ended up as the dominant race of a modern nation state? Wagaung (talk) 21:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There have been some academic studies of the British concept of "martial races" in relation to India. It was basically a rationalisation for keeping certain untrustworthy groups away from guns - the Bengalis were regarded as the non-martial race par excellence, largely because they'd been so much trouble to the East India Company in the 18th century. It was part of the larger "divide and rule" strategy - put minorities into the army to keep the majority down. In the Burnmese situation, it didn't hurt that the Burmans had managed to get themselves hated by all their neighbours, Karen, Shan, Rakhine, even Thai and Manipuri.PiCo (talk) 13:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The comments of Brigadier John Smyth are simply incorrect. The government of India around 1925 dismissed the Burmans from the army because their recruitment was considered more trouble than it was worth. The problem wasn't an issue of "martial races". The problem was that army service simply wasn't very attractive to the Burmese population. The pay was compartively bad, the military duties were mostly pointless drill/ceremony and there were much better opportunties elsewhere in the country. In India, those who went into the army were escaping lack of economic opportunities and were sent off most of the time to fight on the northwest frontier. Real duty. That didn't apply to the forces in Burma. For the Chins and Kachins however, the pay was compartively enormous and service gave them entry into a whole different world. After seperation from India, the British administration in Burma resumed (slowly) recruiting Burmans into the military because they well understood the foolishness of creating an unrepresentative army.

As far as "divide and rule", its slightly more complicated than many of the academics want to make it. For many minority groups, outside rule meant the removal of local oppression and the opening of opportunities they would have been denied in other circumstances. Rather than being an explicit strategy, the situation of British rule simply created circumstances that allowed for things that would have been prevented under nationalist burman rule. If there was a "divide and rule" strategy in Burma, it was between the Indian/Nepalese immigrants and the Burman population not with the Karen. Compared to Nepalese and Indians, the Karens serving in the army in Burma were a tiny number. 66.226.193.82 (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Granted outside influence can be both good and bad. Indians and Nepalese being non-indigenous and small in numbers posed no threat to the union, but the Karen's case is a different matter altogether. A religious divide also has a role compounded by the presence of foreign missionaries although in the case of the Shan, Mon and Rakhine, Burmans must acknowledge no such outside influence can be blamed. Wagaung (talk) 23:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Rambo

Obviously Ahoerstemeier was correct to remove the reference to the Rambo film. Films are not references and shouldn't appear in the reference section. But I do think it would be good to include a section about the Rambo film in the article. Ryan Albrey (talk) 02:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that a section on 'Rambo' would be appropriate. The Karen are a specific ethnic group with a distinct culture and history, neither of which include Rambo. The fact that an American action movie includes the Karen as a plot device does not have any relevance to the actual Karen or their plight... This actually reminds me of the situation that arose after Borat came out, when a number of editors wanted to add a section about that movie to the article for Kazakhstan which was also deemed inappropriate. The inclusion of a section on Rambo would set a precedent for including sections for any movie which has specific ethnic groups in it on that ethnic groups article, which would be ridiculous. --The Way (talk) 07:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

...

So I guess in a similar way that Arend Rand's Atlas Shrugged should lead to us dismissing her work on Selfishness as she quotes her fictional protaganist from Atlas Shrugged? I think that fictional sources are fine if they are contextualized and doing that with Rambo would mean that the film is not a primary or perhaps a secondary source. However if the film was filmed in a Karen village then there might be a case for pointing out aspects that are visually represented that are factual in the same way that James Bond could be used to show that English culture has spies and MI5 as a department. Cultural relativism means such a fictional film might be useful - but only with caveats.

Population figures don't add up

If the Karen represent 7% of the Burmese population of 47 million then they would number about 3.3 million not 7 million. If 7 million then this would be closer to 13%, or 1 in 7.(not the same as 7%). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.79.208 (talk) 00:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Tibetan?

"The Karen people's ancestors ... were Tibetan refugees." I don't think so. PiCo (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There are various stories and hypotheses given for the origin of the Karen, of which Tibet is only one, and even if true it doesn't follow that they were refugees. I'm deleting the claim, but will try to look for references for the various claims. Ergative rlt (talk) 03:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The Resettlement of Refugees

I just read that the UN is resettling 30,000 karens to other countries, 20,000 of which will go to the US. This is kind of a minor thing to put into the history section, but if there was a refugee or dyasporia section, it could certainly go there. Any thoughts? DaronDierkes (talk) 04:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Philippines

Karen Dotollo PAlero of Philippines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karainie (talk • contribs) 13:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Pwa Ka Nyaw

My understanding is that 'Pwa Ka Nyaw' (or 'Pgaganyaw') is what the Sgaw (or S'kaw) Karen call themselves: not all Karen. Delang (2003) Living at the edge of Thai Society: The Karen in the highlands of northern Thailand says (p. x): 'In Thailand there are over 400,000 Karen, most of whom are divided into two subgroups, the Skaw, who call themselves Pgaganyaw, and the Pwo, who call themselves Plong'. Perhaps the reference to 'Pwa Ka Nyaw' should be removed from the first sentence of the article, but added under Divisions/Red Karen. Mrmedley (talk) 08:18, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. We should have all the names, not just by the Sgaw. Hybernator (talk) 12:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that we have any of the names now. This article points out that the "Karen" are not one monolithic group, but many population groups, with mutually unintelligible languages. Without pointing out which groups fall under this term, how can this article be of any use? Are the Sgaw Karens? Are the Karenni people also Karens? Then please point this out instead of leaving it a mystery. :Kortoso (talk) 10:01, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Two distinct meanings of the term "Karen"?

It seems that anthropologists consider Karenni (Red Karen) a subgroup of Karen, while in official Burmese nomenclature, Karen (Kayin) and Karenni (Kayah) are distinct ethnic groups, and Karen (Kayin) means "all Karen groups, except Karenni". This means that "Karen" has two distinct meanings in two contexts: anthropological and governmental-statistical. If this is so, it should be made explicit.--Palaeovia^talk 11:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Quoting from Red Karen:

The Karenni States is the name formerly given to the three states of Kantarawadi (3,161 square miles or 8,190 square kilometres, pop (1931) 30,677), Kyebogyi (790 square miles or 2,000 square kilometres, pop (1931) 14,282) and Bawlake (568 square miles or 1,470 square kilometres, pop (1931) 13,802), located south of the Federated Shan States and east of British Burma.

The British government recognized and guaranteed the independence of the Karenni States in an 1875 treaty with Burmese King Mindon Min, by which both parties recognized the area as belonging neither to Burma nor to Great Britain. Consequently, the Karenni States were never fully incorporated into British Burma. The Karenni States were recognized as tributary to British Burma in 1892, when their rulers agreed to accept a stipend from the British government. In the 1930s, the Mawchi Mine in Bawlake was the most important source of tungsten in the world. The Constitution of the Union of Burma in 1947 proclaimed that the three Karenni States be amalgamated into a single constituent state of the union, called Karenni State. It also provided for the possibility of secession from the Union after 10 years. In 1952, the former Shan state of Mong Pai was added, and the whole renamed Kayah State, possibly with the intent of driving a wedge between the Karenni (in Kayah State) and the rest of the Karen people (in Karen State), both fighting for independence.

The seperate political development of the Karenni and the rest of the Karen (mainly Sgaw and Pwo) vis-a-vis both Burma and the UK since the 19th century has resulted in the current situation in which "Karen" and "Karenni" are mutually exclusive terms. This situation, though reinforced by the Burmese government, is accepted by the Karen and the Karenni themselves, as well as their independence movements.--Palaeovia^talk 01:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

kare —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.234.41.40 (talk) 00:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

History

Surely, the Karens have had a history before 1881, right? It would be nice if it were on the page. Just some advice to improve the article. --Yalens (talk) 14:13, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

population

How come the overall population is 4M, but a region has 7M people in it? -Concerned Reader — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.54.70 (talk) 07:16, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

And how come they are '7 percent of the total Burmese population', Burma population = 49mill, 7 percent of 49mill = 3.5mill, but there are 7 million in Burma (some mistake somewhere!).Pincrete (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

2013 refugee camp fire

Major fire in Ban Mae Surin refugee camp in Mae Hong Son Province.

--Pawyilee (talk) 15:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Long Necked Women

The article shows a woman with a "long" neck and neck rings. She is said to be Karen. I do not think so. My understanding is that this ethnic group is one kind, and one sub-group only, of the Karenni and the Karenni are not Karen, they are a different, related group. I think this photo should be removed. My sources for this information are Karen and Karenni people in the USA, one of whom was a "lon g-necked" woman/(before coming to the USA she removed and sold her neck rings but kept many photos of herself from before.) . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.53.137 (talk) 15:09, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a custom practiced by the Padaung people and they are considered to belong to the Karen group. Kortoso (talk) 10:10, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

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Encyclopedia is not a human-interest story

In the sections "Karen diaspora" and "Life in the Refugee Camps," there is verbatim interview material from the source material. Man-on-the-street interviews are inappropriate in an encyclopedia, and should be removed.--Quisqualis (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

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All Saints

Is the role of the Karens portrayed in the 2017 movie All Saints worth noting? BTW, in this movie they are confused with Koreans. CsikosLo (talk) 13:44, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

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Karen meme

Because in recent months Karen has become an internet meme, i think protection is necessary MightyArms (talk) 02:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

March 2021: Sources for updated numbers

Myanmar Sgaw Karen (blue) population 2,008,099 sources —>

https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/14881/BM

Thailand sgaw Karen population 200,000—>https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/14881/TH Thai sgaw karen population information Is wrong. Evidence sources—>

https://www.baanjomyut.com/library/karen/05.html

Pwo karen (blue Karen)

Karen, Pwo Eastern 1,226,000

Sources—>https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/15395

Karen, Pwo Northern 84,000 source—>https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/20333/TH

Karen, Pwo Rachaburi 6,300 source—>https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/20333/TH

Karen, Pwo Western 209,000 source—>https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/19212/BM Total: 1,525,300

11 sub small (blue karen) tribes Bghai 26,200 Brek 20,000 Geba 46,000 Gheko18,000

Lahta 11,000 Manumanaw 11,000 Mobwa 4,600 Paku 6,800 Striped 13,000 Yinbaw 9,300 Yintale

11,000Total: 81,900 sources—> https://joshuaproject.net/clusters/200

Blue Karen population Total. 2,008,000 million(Sgaw Myanmar) 1,525,300 million (pwo myanmar) 81,900 (11 small Karen tribes Myanmar) = 3,615,200

The total population Of blue Karen in Myanmar Is 3,615,200 or 7% of Myanmar Population. Thailand blue Karen 1 million. Myanmar and Thailand 3,615,200+1,000,000= 4,615,200

Thai and myanmar + other countries 4,615,200+200,000(U.S)+200,000(other countries)= 5,015,200 million. The total population of blue Karen is 5 million.

Pa’O (black Karen) population 1.2 million (2014 Survey)

Pa-O population 864,000 (1988 Survey) sources—> https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/10892/BM

The pa-O information Is wrong. Evidence Sources https://www.mmtimes.com/news/team-conduct-nationwide-survey-ethnic-pa-o-people.html

Karenni (red Karen) Karenni or Kayah (red karen)

Karen, Kayah eastern 27,900–> sources https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/14532

Karen, Kayah western 183,000–> sources https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/12587

Kayan, Padaung 147,800–> sources https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/14250 Total: 358,000

Blue Karen 3.6 million (myanmar) 1 million (Thai) 400,000 (other country U.S. ECT)

Black Karen 1.2 million (2014 Survey)

Red Karen 358,000 — 2601:448:8400:C47:2457:A1AA:5C7:DEAA

The above was moved from the main article space. CentreLeftRight ✉ 20:53, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

The Joshua Project's summary of all their numbers listed above. Combining numbers is a poor approach because it is synthesising material. The Irrawaddy cites the 2014 Myanmar Census, while The Joshua Project cites a census from 1988. Also, in regards to this revert, an additional point is that "Karenic" is the adjective for the family of languages, not the ethnic group. CentreLeftRight ✉ 05:26, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Quoting myself from a relevant discussion regarding the change of Myanmar's Karen population from 3.6 million to 5 million:

The 5 million number cannot be accepted without a reliable source clearly stating such, i.e. "5 million Karen live in Myanmar" or something similar. Synthesising data from multiple sources is unacceptable, especially if the years in which the data was collected vary wildly.

CentreLeftRight ✉ 18:09, 29 March 2021 (UTC)