Talk:Kanhopatra

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Kanhopatra has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 19, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed
November 6, 2009	Peer review	Reviewed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 17, 2009.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Kanhopatra is venerated as a saint in the Varkari sect of Hinduism, despite spending most of her life as a courtesan?

Current status: Good article

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Chandrabhaga river

I'm a dumb old American, but I've heard of the Bhima River and I even have a vague idea of its location. I've never heard of the Chandrabhaga river, and there's no way on earth I'd know that it's a local name for the Bhima. I believe that the name of the river is of no consequence to this article, but if it is of consequence, then let's call it by the name most likely to be recognized by non-locals. If it's absolutely necessary to include Chandrabhaga, lets do so in a note or in parenthesis, but as this really overwhelms the sentence, I suggest once more no name at all. --Nemonoman (talk) 17:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem most traditional accounts and Varkari texts call the river Chandrabhaga. The reference calls it Chandrabhaga. So IMO Chandrabhaga needs to be in the text. No name creates the question: which river flooded? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like this but it's not a GA deal-killer. I'll make a fuss when you try to FA the article.--Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think about the current version? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:33, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Better, thanks for asking. --Nemonoman (talk) 16:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ovi poems

What are ovi-style poems?--Nemonoman (talk) 02:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ovi is a type of poetic meter, used in abhanga poetry. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK -- will integrate. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

what does this mean?

She talks of voluptuous thoughts of others. ?????

In this context, she compares herself to the food that is devoured by wild animals.??

Once someone explains the first sentence, the context of the second will probably be clear. I've deleted these sentences while awaiting some clarification. --Nemonoman (talk) 02:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The thoughts expressed by others "Devoted to or indulging in sensual [sexual] pleasures" with her. Thus she compares herself to food, the others as wild animals. This is an important feature of her poetry. Except her, Only saint-poet Andal also compares herself to the food that is devoured by wild animals/beasts.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Will integrate this when I can think of appropriate words. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please help unravel this confusion

Sripati ("husband of Lakshmi - wife of god Vishnu"),

If X is the husband of Lakshmi -- and Lakshmi is the wife of Y Then

EITHER X===Y (exact equivalence)
OR X == Y (logical equivalence -- same individual - different names (??) )
OR Lakshmi has 2 different husbands (X != Y)

Help? --Nemonoman (talk) 02:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sripati literally means husband of Shri/Sri (Lakshmi), thus it is an epithet of Vishnu, her husband. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit to the article is much clearer. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance of fact

"Nako Devaraya Anta Aata" is believed to the last abhanga of Kanhopatra's life - where she begs Vithoba to end her misery.^[1]^[2]

It's a fact, but not very relevant to a section about movies and plays. I've deleted. If there is a reason why this fact is important, let's find a better place to put it. It doesn't add a lot of value, in my opinion. --Nemonoman (talk) 02:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Nako Devaraya Anta Aata" is one of kanhopatra's most popular abhnagas (if not the most popular/famous). References like Maharashtra Times, Prahaar newspaper quote this verse. I wanted to quote it, but couldn't find an English translation. This fact is very important, it needs to be somewhere. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As is, however, it is an untethered fact. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It needs in "Literary works and teachings" or "life". Please check. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:40, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to literary works. --Nemonoman (talk) 16:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Additions of "citation needed"

I want to clarify my use of ^{[citation needed]} tags: I am not disputing or doubting the information being presented, but noting that the information is being presented in a way suggestive of Original Research or Point of View. For example: Vithoba as "the god of the downtrodden". Surely some reliable can be found that uses this evocative term. If specific references can be added that reflect this point of view then there is no harm including it. Without a specific reference, however, it suggests a POV that should be edited out of a Good Article. --Nemonoman (talk) 12:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vithoba as "the god of the downtrodden" is the Varkari's POV (see WP:YESPOV). Vithoba is frequently praised "the God of subaltern" (quote from FA Vithoba).

If it's a typical quote -- which I don't doubt -- quote somebody saying it so it doesn't appear to be an editorial comment from a POV editor. If it's a typical quote, it shouldn't be hard to find a source. If the source is in Marathi I'll take your word of the translation. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

the Vakari says Vithoba is "दीनदयाळू" [1] meaning दीन means poor, downtrodden, distressed etc. दयाळू - kind. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About references, I do not put references at the end of every sentence if they are corelated. I put references at end of 2-liner or para if they are co-related. e.g "Most of these verses are autobiographical, with an element of pathos.[3] Her style is described as unadorned by poetic devices, easy to understand, and with a simplicity of expression." Manmatha: Literal meaning, As Vishnu.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take it as true if you tell me that any questioned ^{[citation needed]} is answered by the preceding or following footnote. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some questions:

She refers to Krishna as the "champion of the low", and as her mother.[13] According to Vithoba "mother" references were part of Janabai's abhangas as well. Is this typical of the Vakari devotion? If so, let's mention.

Kanhopatra also asserts the importance of repeating the names of God and reveals how the chanting of His names has helped her. She hoped that her chanting would ultimately lead her to her salvation.[15]

I assume that this refers to japa? It could also be kirtan maybe? Can anyone clarify. We should use the term and link it.

I'll note that Janabai includes Marathi wārakari (वारकरी) and abhang (अभंग). Adding these Marathi terms in this article would be reasonable, in my opinion. --Nemonoman (talk) 12:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Vithoba is often referred as father or mother (the "ba" suffix in Vithoba means father). --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My question is: would this be good to mention? I've heard this myself, but the article sentence makes it seem like it's Kanhopatra's special creation. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reference says "repeating the names of God", it may mean japa or kirtan. Varkaris often sing the names of Vishnu/Vithoba/Krishna while going on a pilgrimage to Pandharpur - it may refer to that too. Yes, Janabai also refers to Vithoba as a mother. A mother is believed to closer to a child than a father. I think Janabai can be added in a note.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Janabai is of no consequence except that she also did the Mother thing, making it clear that this was not unique to K. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note added. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

वारकरी is spelt as Varkari and अभंग as abhanga in the article. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I only wondered whether you considered to include the marathi script and the marathi transliterations in addition to Vakari and abhanga. Some people like this sort of thing. --Nemonoman (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would not prefer the Marathi script as Varkari and abhang have it and it is UNDUE. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This reflects my personal preferences as well, but you and I appear to be in a very small minority. --Nemonoman (talk) 16:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FA Ganesha and FA Vithoba have Devanagari script (Sanskrit/Marathi) for the nmaes of the deities, not otherwise. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 03:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

^ Cite error: The named reference mahatimes was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference prahaar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[mahatimes-1] Cite error: The named reference mahatimes was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[prahaar-2] Cite error: The named reference prahaar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[1]

[2]