Talk:Kamiza

"confused"

What's with the "confused by martial artists"? Prescriptivism aside, what's the etymology for this? (Certainly seems notable, as this is apparently how the word is being used in most of the world, and this is en.WP..) Cesiumfrog (talk) 03:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The etymology of kamiza is, literally, "top seat" (上座). The Japanese article is about the seat of honour in both Japanese rooms and in the West, as well as in cars, airplanes, and trains; the article does not mention dojo usage.

The Japanese article about Kamidana contains the following section about Kamidana in a dojo:

武道道場の神棚

武道の道場にはよく神棚が祭られているが、江戸時代の道場では神棚ではなく、『日本書紀』や『古事記』など日本神話から「剣の神、武の神」とされた「鹿島大明神」（タケミカヅチ）と「香取大明神」（経津主神）の二柱の神名、さらに幕末期には尊皇攘夷思想の高まりとともに「天照皇大神宮」（天照大神）を中央に加えた三柱の神名を書いた掛け軸が床にかける神床であった。 明治44年に旧制中学校の課外授業に撃剣（剣術後に剣道と改称）、柔術（後に柔道にかわる）が採用になって以降、武道の道場には神棚が設けられ、その下に日章旗が掲揚され、道場入室の際に神拝がおこなわれるなど神前稽古の形式で稽古が行われた。第二次世界大戦後の連合国軍最高司令官総司令部の学校教育への武道禁止の後、武道再開の際、政教分離によって多くの公立の学校道場から神棚が撤去された。一部の国公立校、多くの私立校では神棚が残っている。

また、合気道は、創始者植芝盛平が神道系の宗教団体大本において、特にその哲学・精神面で影響を受けて生まれた武道であるとされることから、道場において神棚が設置されていることがある。

The last part says that in the development of aikido, founder Morihei Ueshiba was influenced by the shintoist Omoto sect to build Kamidana in dojo.

The only problem I see is that the Ja wiki itself is unsourced. Heroeswithmetaphors (talk) 02:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I asked an aikido 8th dan shihan today and he said that Osensei never built Kamidana in dojo. The Google images I see are only for karate and kendo dojo. We need sources!! Heroeswithmetaphors (talk) 18:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

There's still no citation here for the claim that martial artists confuse kamiza and kamidana.

Instead there are merely 3 links (and a broken 4th) to some images of dojo that do in fact have kamidana (and that are so captioned in Japanese). It must be emphasised that these particular images are festooned with braids of rope and paper (see shimenawa, shide and yorishiro), so they clearly are in fact intended as shinto altars, unlike the artifacts kept at the front of many martial arts dojos (esp. in the west). At best, that proves that in some cases the term kamidana is correct, but does not prove that the manner in which western martial artists have used the term kamiza is not also correct. Let me present an equally weak counter-citation, that sometimes "it is not clear whether [an example] functioned as a kamidana".[1]

Certainly, it is common to have some artifact at the front of an aikido dojo (such as the instructor's weapons, or a photograph of Morihei Ueshiba, or a calligraphy sign, or even a flower arrangement). Does this necessarily even count as "kamidana"? It's worth emphasising that the Japanese for "kami" has completely different etymology in these two words: kamidana is spirit-ledge, but kamiza is top-position. Perhaps a photo or candle might be interpreted to have spiritual significance, but the rest (e.g., signage, clocks, racks of training equipment, etc) doesn't sound inherently shrine-like at all. Would Japanese instructors agree on the exact term "kamidana" for something that has an ornamental/functional but non-religious purpose? (Heroeswithmetaphors, which shihan did you ask, so we can know which period he speaks concerning? And does that shihan consider the practice of displaying Ueshiba's photo, which presumably his dojo started only when he died, to be a kamidana or kamiza or both or something else?) Cesiumfrog (talk) 03:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I also agree that "confused" seems like a weasel word used too freely. I have been studying kyudo, and while there can be a kamidana, aka a small Shinto altar, (this is not included in public dojo due to Japanese separation of church and state), there is also the more general kamiza area, where the teacher and guests of honor sit. Students bow and never turn their backs toward the kamiza. In fact, the shajo, shooting hall, of a standard kyudojo will always have a kamiza. All of this comes from the book Kyudo by Hideharu Onuma.Lakshwadeep (talk) 05:39, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Removal of references to dojo

Of course there is no "source" to prove that the terms "kamiza" and "kamidana" have been confused because that would be like proving a negative. But it is not used in Japanese in that way -ever- and you will not be able to find any sources or even random text in Japanese that refer to a "kamiza" as having anything to do with a "kamidana" or the front of a dojo. If your shihan said it, he or she is mistaken and I assume they do not speak Japanese and have never seen anything in Japanese to suggest that a kamiza is related to this issue. It is a proliferation of a mistake and I hope Wikipedia will not double down without providing some Japanese sources to back it up. This is a Japanese term. 03:03, 19 October 2019 (UTC)Gabdav (talk)