Talk:Kalākaua's 1874–75 state visit to the United States/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Kalakaua's 1874–75 visit to the United States

Would you be interested in creating a start article on Kalakaua's 1874–75 visit to the United States? I am working on Leleiohoku's article right now who served as Kalakaua's regent during his absence from Hawaii and thought it would be a good joint DYK nomination for November 17 (anniversary of the start the trip). Do you think there would be any importance in separating it from Reciprocity Treaty of 1875 and talking about the quirky details of his trip including his meeting with P. T. Barnum? KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:48, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Created John Mākini Kapena, not the most complete. It took me a while to make out a narrative to his laundry list of political posts. Feel free to add any detail about his trip with Kalakaua if you found any. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR An amazing amount of content on this guy. My searches had come up with not much. I've been wondering about him since we did the world trip article. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 11:29, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR Would you like to do the nominating for the DYK process? I'm a little burned out on that process. — Maile (talk) 20:15, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes sure and Reciprocity section looks good. I would suggest the title Kalākaua's 1874–75 state visit to the United States instead to be concise.KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:54, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR FYI Ran Dec 2, 2016. Different article, but needs to be a different hook angle for DYK. — Maile (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR If you want to look at the California section now, go ahead and edit at will. What was the Hawaiian national anthem at that time (it's mentioned in that section)? When it comes to documenting history, there's something to be said for syncophants out to feather their own nests. 1874 Hawaii newspaper coverage of Kalakaua is scant, compared to the glut of the world trip when Walter M. Gibson owned the Advertiser. — Maile (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

The national anthem mentioned in multiple places along his trip was most likely He Mele Lāhui Hawaiʻi by Liliuokalani [1]. I don’t know exactly when Hawaiʻi Ponoʻī was first adopted as the national anthem. KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Kalakaua's address on returning home

Here is Kalakaua’s address on his return home talking about his experience. Explains some details of his side trips including Niagara Fall. Worth quoting. https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83025121/1875-02-24/ed-1/seq-2/ KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:08, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

I'll read it tomorrow. Assume you're talking about Col. 4, "The address the King delivered, in Hawaiian and English, ... His Majesty's Address" — Maile (talk) 01:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

San Francisco picked up the entire tab for their expenses in the city
Note: Kalakaua says there were 7 in his party on that arrived in D.C.. Omitting the Goodmans would leave 7 people, but was he counting his valet George (last name?)
Check mileage math (?) K says it was 5,000 across the Pacific and 6,000 across the continent. He adds that up to 10,000
He first met Schofield during his 1860 trip to California
The royal party occupied 3 rail cars

Met at D. C rail station by Pres's cabinet, and escorted to the hotel. Seems like the military, and its music band, did the escort

K was ill when they arrived in D.C.
He visited unspecified buildings in D. C. before proceeding to the United States Capitol, where he was welcomed by the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives
The US govt and Americans in general are in favor of the treaty
Treaty has been signed by Pres. Grant and sent to the Senate for ratification
They were in DC 8 days
7 days in New York
Visited New Bedford, Massachusetts where the whalers came from
New Haven, Connecticut visited Hiram Bingham's church, but does not say what that was
Attended services at Park Street Church in Boston and visited area schools
Waltham watch factory
Visited Niagara Falls, New York
Next stop Chicago for 4 days
Next stop St. Louis, MO, where he met William Tecumseh Sherman, at that time serving as Commanding General of the United States Army
Visited the Missouri legislature in Jefferson City, Missouri
Omaha, Nebraska and was entertained by the Masonic Body of Knights Templar
Back to San Francisco, took the USS Pensacola back to Honolulu
On the same ship was a Col. Steinberger, US Commissioner to Samoa, whoever he was

Mark Twain note

Interesting side note about Mark Twain. [2] He met Kalakaua in 1866 when he was Kamehameha V’s chamberlain. [3][4] KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:37, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

State dinner

KAVEBEAR Here's a puzzle for us to figure out. All the "official" sources I've seen on the state dinner set the date as Dec. 12. And by that, I mean the 3 sources listed at the bottom of the section on D. C. They all list the dinner as Dec 12, 1874. Probably one source got it wrong, and everybody just copied the wrong one. Kalakaua arrived in D. C. by train on Dec 12. He was ill and took to his bed in the hotel. This is from reports on what he did on Dec 13. He was still ill and under a doctor's care. Grant's message suggests a reception "at the White House one evening this week", so it had not yet happened by Dec 13, much less the 12th. Invitations and waiting for replies, planning the event ... must have taken more than a day, if not a week or so. I wonder when that dinner really happened? Everything on Wikipedia is wrong, because all the sources are wrong. — Maile (talk) 00:38, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

What is this official source you are talking about? Searching on google book: I got this dating the dinner to December 22. It is unlikely any official dinner would expect a guest to go on the day of arrival even if the king was not sick. I say ignore the problematic sources and correct the inaccuracies. They are obviously confusing the arrival date with the dinner date. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:03, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Huh. I was referring to The White House Historical Association, TIME Magazine, Vanity Fair. And while I was doing an internet search, I came across site for the White House records archive under Obama that listed the Dec 12 date. Well, another problem solved. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 01:11, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah books and primary sources are generally more trustworthy. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:15, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Images

Looking at this has cast some doubt on the identification of one of the figure in this picture. According to this Bishop Museum display it is E. M. Mayor. Have you seen any sources stating Luther W. Severance was part of the entourage to arrive in California? Luther W. Severance was a Hilo settler and brother of Henry W. Severance, both sons of former American commissioner Luther Severance and the nephew of the H. W. Severance. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:17, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

E.M. Mayor (with an "o" not an "e") the king's private secretary. I have him listed above. Kuykendall never mentioned him. It was in the sources. But why would the secretary be in that picture at all? "The King's suite - Newspapers.com". San Francisco Chronicle at Newspapers.com.
H. W. Severance. See the letter that begins CONSULATE OF HAWAII FOR CALIFORNIA. It's signed by H. W. Severance, and that's who went to D. C. with Kalakaua. It's the only Severance in the sources that I've found. Kuykendall lists a Luther Severance in his book, but not in the pages on the reciprocity. That confused me, because no Severance is mentioned in the reciprocity chapter. However, in regards to Severance, the San Francisco Chronicle certainly would have known who signed the letter they printed. "The Coming Man (Kalakaua) Nov 1874 - Newspapers.com". San Francisco Chronicle at Newspapers.com. — Maile (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The Hawaii State Archives and Albert Pierce Taylor’s book both note him as Luther W. Severance who was a postmaster of Hilo[5]. Now it seem more likely that it was Henry W. Severance, his brother, since it would make since him being there, in San Francisco with the king’s suite. Do you have any idea how old E. M. Mayor/Mayer was in 1874? The man is a visibly old man so if Mayor was younger, it would rule out that possibility. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I think the identifying factor on Severance is the letter reprinted in the SF paper. I never heard of Mayor until I saw his name in that source. He also crops up here and then in the reporting from D.C. However, that old man sure looks like the same image you uploaded for Henry A. Peirce. Peirce would have been 66 years old then. In those days, people looked old by the time they were in their 40s. Even in the 1960s - I'm amazed when I see movies with gray-haired wrinkled cast members, only to find out they were under the age of 50. — Maile (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Ok looking at the sources again. This is even more confusing. Taylor list the two standing figures as Luther Severance and Henry Pierce. The http://gallery.hawaii.gov/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2164&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 [Hawaii State Archives] list them as Luther W. Severance and Henry A. P. Carter. The gray hair man does look more like Pierce and he would have been the oldest member of the party. That now leaves the guy standing on the right as either Severance or Carter. Carter was in San Francisco with Allen to meet with the King, right? It doesn't help that the right standing guy looks like an average white person from the 19th century. I am going to see if I can find another source that uses the image that has a better idea who the two standing figures are. -KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

It is Mayor [6]! I think the King just decided to put his secretary in the photograph since he was traveling with them. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:30, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad we have a couple of months to put this together. When you think about it, Elisha Hunt Allen was in charge of the negotiations, and he went to D. C. with Henry A. P. Carter. Maybe this image is not the team. Kalakaua poised for photos in San Francisco in Nov 1874, where this image seems to have been taken. Allen and Carter weren't there. They were in D. C. So, the men who docked in San Francisco with him, and left with him on the train, were Mayor, Peirce, Dominis and Kapena. Kalakaua said there were 7 people in his party on the train - Dominis, Kapena, Peirce, Schofield. Wherry, Whitting and newspaper reporter Joe Irwin (at least, that's how I count who was on the train with him). That's if he didn't count his secretary Mayor, and his valet George, whom he never mentions. If he counted Mayor in his count, maybe he didn't consider Irwin as part of his party. There was also a railroad agent and his wife on the train, but Kalakaua would not have considered them as part of his party.— Maile (talk) 01:59, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I think what the picture would have capture was the King's suite, which is reported here in the San Francisco Chronicle as including Mayor [7]. It seems like the rest of the figure were not going to travel with the king to DC so they would have been left out of the photograph by Bradley and Rulofson. I tried looking even for the what the E stands for, but couldn't find much. KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm signing off for the day, so will continue this tomorrow. — Maile (talk) 01:59, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

You know the photograph that took a lifetime to get approve on King Kalākaua's world tour by Bradley & Rulofson would have been more appropriate for this article. KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

November 28, 1874 arrival in California

I came across this source. Haven't read it fully yet. But it sheds a lot of light on all of the Hawaiian royal visits to California. On the page I linked it mentions that the Benicia arrived at 10:30pm on November 28, 1874. Reading the San Francisco Chronicle coverage of the arrival doesn't seem to convey the same thing. It states that the ship dropped anchor at 7:00 presumably AM on November 29. Could the ship have been near San Francisco for nine hours before dropping anchor? KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, on the plus side, your question caused me to discover the California Digital Newspaper Collection. The The Daily Alta California coverage at that time, says the ship arrived about 6 pm. on November 28. It was "outside the Heads", whatever that means in nautical terms. She entered the Golden Gate and dropped anchor about 9 p.m. The reception by the SF dignitaries would take place the morning of Nov 29. Reading this, looks to me like the Daily Alta California had access to naval logs, not only because of the times mentioned, but because they went into more detail of who the crew was."The King Is Here". Daily Alta California at California Digital Newspaper Collection. November 29, 1874. Retrieved August 12, 2018. And maybe they had better access to the royal party, "imbedded reporter" as the term is today. A reporter from that newspaper was on the train across America with them.

The book you have linked seems to make an error in that is says he left for Hawaii on January 27, 1875. Both the Daily Alta California and the New York Daily Herald say his ship headed back for Honolulu on February 2."Vale Kalakaua: His Majesty Departs This Morning". Daily Alta California at California Digital Newspaper Collection. February 2, 1985. Retrieved August 12, 2018.; "King Kalakaua Departs". New York Daily Herald at Newspapers.com. February 3, 1875. Retrieved August 12, 2018. — Maile (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I think you can only trust what is corroborated by more than one sources. I'm going to work in expanding the departure details from Honolulu.KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:39, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I see that you dropped several reference links into the departing section. I'll just step back and let you handle that at your convenience, as I think you have a pretty good idea what is needed there. — Maile (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

George the valet

Traveled with a valet named "George" who had also been valet to Lunalilo and Kam V. Don't know who he was, or if this is worth mentioning. Here's the Baltimore Sun mention: "Kalakaua's valet George - Newspapers.com". Baltimore Sun at Newspapers.com. December 14, 1874. Retrieved August 12, 2018. — Maile (talk) 12:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The Ka Kuokoa Nupepa [8] noted that he traveled with three servants which may have included Mayor since he is not mentioned by name. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:41, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Then let's leave George out, as this seems to be the only mention of him. It would be overkill on unnecessary details of who was around on the trip. — Maile (talk) 12:02, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Retain this talk page when we move to main space?

KAVEBEAR I moved this over to this talk page. It was getting too large and in the way on the article development. — Maile (talk) 02:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Good idea.KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

How about retaining this talk page when we move this to main space? Much of what is here has helped me refer to comments/sources when we are trying to put the pieces together. Might be helpful once it's in main space, as this subject matter can be confusing on details if the research records are removed. — Maile (talk) 14:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah that would make sense. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

What the king ate

KAVEBEAR I see your link with the menus. Interesting. One thing that I noticed here and there in the research, I'd run across a lists of his daily menu. See col. 1 here. Putting it in perspective, this was probably royalty's version of the modern-day casino buffets. They probably just gave him a variety, and who knows what they did with the leftovers. But looking at the menu selections from the 21st Century knowledge of diet, I think we can see why he died young. — Maile (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think it was the norm in the 19th and early 20th century to eat this much. This period had a fair share of husky male leaders like Cleveland, Churchill, Edward VII and etc.KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:16, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Also, too, he knew his own celebrity worth. In New Bedford, we have him handing out photographs of himself and signing autographs, lots and lots of autographs. Until I read that, I thought autograph seekers were a phenomenon that began in the 20th century. — Maile (talk) 23:29, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Kamehameha II

The comparison to Kamehameha II’s fatal state visit abroad should be mentioned since it was the only other instance of a reigning Hawaiian monarch leaving the islands. Maybe there are sources worrying about the fate of the king abroad. KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:45, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. Why don't you write it in. I'm totally unfamiliar with the subject matter — Maile (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

"Ali'i Diplomatic Missions to Washington, D.C." (PDF). Office of Hawaiian Affairs, state of Hawaii. Archived from the original (PDF) on June 2, 2010. Retrieved August 16, 2018. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

Maybe this will help as well.KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

You write it, please. I'm getting bogged down with details. He went so many places, that I feel like I'll never reach the end of the researching. Some of it is looking for a needle in a haystack, and I'm getting researcher/writer fatigue. It would be helpful if you wrote about Kam II ... thanks. — Maile (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh I did. The sources is about something else. Yeah it gets endless at times. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. — Maile (talk) 22:47, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

I just put the above link under External links at the bottom of the article. Thanks for providing it. Remove if you think it doesn't belong under External links, but it's nice to have it there. — Maile (talk) 23:30, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

The photographs

Kalakaua seems to have visited a photography studio everywhere he went. I don't know why he liked doing that, but I think he did history a favor. — Maile (talk) 01:09, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

commons:Category:Kalākaua. I think it was a trend in the era especially for royalty. Going back to your comment on his giving out autographs, an autographed cabinet card photograph seem to be the it thing to have almost like trading cards. So many auctions these days carry photographs of Kalakaua and other members of the Hawaiian royal family. It makes dating some of his obscure photograph easier for me. I recently uploaded two by Gurney when he was in New York and then the couple by Bradley & Rulofson. KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:05, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Birthday speech

Just putting this for later analysis:

William Pitt Lynde

KAVEBEAR is there anything you would like to add to the Milwaukee day trip? He visited a mansion, owned by Mrs. and Mrs. William Pitt Lynde. He was the guest of honor at their luncheon of society friends, so perhaps he knew these people from Hawaii? Are they perhaps related to him? — Maile (talk) 00:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I don’t think they are Hawaii-related. William Pitt Lynde was a congressman and one time mayor of Milwaukee. Just looks like a local dignitary hosting the king. Sorry, I haven’t been paying full attention to this article. I will look into it a bit more in due time and add additional details. I have a tendency to jump from project to project.KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:43, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I got it now. Lynde was a cousin to Amos Starr Cooke. The Lynde's daughter visited the islands back when Kalakaua was young, and he was in charge of watching over her. — Maile (talk) 12:04, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Progress so far

Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper - acknowledged, but that's a ton more info to read through. Thanks, but I'll leave that to you. I'm reaching burn-out on reading detailed sourcing. Realistically, we are going for DYK here. Don't make it excessively long, or bogged down in sourcing, for DYK. I think I have the basic story and timeline down, with sourcing, which has taken 3 weeks. Still needs a little work. Not completely finished. We need to work on Aftermath. There are still some points I would like to work on. We need some quotes, maybe more images. How about if you do more writing, and I can work on style, etc. Maybe this is a good place to start polishing what we have. — Maile (talk) 16:23, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, you did more than I ask. I was envisioning a start class article originally but this looks great. I will go back in due time to add my own details, so no worries. It is actually significant what we are doing here because from what I’ve seen there are no thorough account of this visit in the sources like his 1881 trip with Armstrong’s book and lot of the details are locked away in old newspapers. KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:04, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Well ... on a lot of Hawaiian subjects, there is sometimes a detailed source to give one the general idea of what happened. Then you can take that concept and build a short article with supporting sources. In this case, Kuykendall fell down on the job. In one paragraph, Kalakaua gets on the boat to San Francisco. In the next paragraph, he comes home 3 months later. I will admit that this is an infinitely fascinating subject matter, but takes a lot of reading to come up with the basics. On the fun side, I did just come up with a keen quote from Barnum. — Maile (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Milwaukee is the largest city in Wisconsin. But, yeah, for consistency, leave Wisconsin off. — Maile (talk) 21:04, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I see. The Midwest is foreign territory to me. Yeah, I think they are pretty obvious unlike something such as Springfield, Illinois. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:23, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Also, I totally agree with your point that it is significant that we complete this. As far as I can tell, information about this subject matter is not in one place, but scattered about in pieces in various places. This is an important piece of history to both Hawaii and the United States. I was just editing the Dec 11 entry where two newspaper reporters jumped on board while the train was stopped, talked their way into the king's quarters while he was in bed, and roused him for an interview. And nobody got beheaded. In spite of all the people with Kalakaua, all concerned were pretty relaxed about security. — Maile (talk) 00:54, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Departing Hawaii sources

https://nupepa-hawaii.com/2015/01/12/king-kalakaua-leaves-for-america-1874/ Ka Nupepa Kuokoa, Buke XIII, Helu 47, Aoao 2. Novemaba 21, 1874.
https://nupepa-hawaii.com/2015/01/12/king-kalakauas-expected-treatment-in-the-unites-states-1874/ Ka Nupepa Kuokoa, Buke XIII, Helu 47, Aoao 2. Novemaba 21, 1874.
https://nupepa-hawaii.com/2014/11/16/king-kalakauas-stirring-address-to-his-people-on-his-38th-birthday-1874/ Ka Nupepa Kuokoa, Buke XIII, Helu 47, Aoao 1. Novemaba 21, 1874.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83025121/1874-11-18/ed-1/seq-2/
- "The King's Birthday". The Hawaiian Gazette. Vol. X, no. 46. Honolulu. November 18, 1874. p. 2.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83025121/1874-11-25/ed-1/seq-2/

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82015418/1874-11-14/ed-1/seq-2/
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn82015418/1874-11-21/ed-1/seq-2/
- "The Royal Birth-Day". The Pacific Commercial Advertiser. Vol. XIX, no. 21. Honolulu. November 21, 1874. p. 2.
- https://nupepa-hawaii.com/2014/11/16/king-kalakauas-address-in-english-1874/

Henry W. Severance

Henry Weld Severance at Find a Grave

"Death of U. S. Former Counsul Severance". Honolulu Advertiser at Newspapers.com. February 13, 1908. Retrieved August 20, 2018.

Dec 19, 1893 H. W. Severance insight on the overthrow

Interesting stuff.

First run thru?

KAVEBEAR I think I've created the basic article. Edit as you wish. We have another 7 weeks to diddle with this. I don't think we should move it to main space until Oct 6, just to make sure of the DYK deadline. — Maile (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, no problem. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:09, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Are there any details that you left out from the breakdown list you made in the past from reading the sources? I can include those and do additional research to flesh out the details. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:26, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I think I probably included the items from my breakdown list with the sources. But you might want to look for something about a $1 million loan to Hawaii in the same agreement with the reciprocity. Supposedly, Hawaii was in bad financial shape and needed the money to cover their debts. I saw it mentioned in a couple of places, but never found anything substantive to put in the article. One of those things where you don't know if someone mentioned it in error, and it maybe got picked up by others, but wasn't factual. Don't know. — Maile (talk) 22:39, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. See below. It's about both Hawaiian national debt, and giving three hundred thousand dollars to sugar planters. — Maile (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

~~"Daily Alta California 22 December 1874 — California Digital Newspaper Collection". cdnc.ucr.edu.~~

~~Special to tho Alta~~

~~HAWAII WANTS A MILLION-DOLLAR LOAN~~

Washington, December 21st.— Advices received here state that the Hawaiian Government has appointed Commissioners to negotiate a loan of one million dollars In bonds, to run thirty years, with seven per cent interest. Tho object Is to pay off the national debt, and three hundred thousand dollars of the balance will be loaned to sugar planters on the Islands, who are greatly distressed financially through losses during the past three years. If the money is raised, it will help the planters raise crops another year, and In the meantime efforts will be made to find a good market for their products. An offer has been made by New Zealand for the entire amount, which will be accepted in case the Reciprocity Treaty with the United States fails, and in case the efforts to float a loan are unsuccessful.

Striking the above. This appears to have been a wish-list by the sugar planters, but I find nothing that says this was ever acted on at a Washington D. C. level.— Maile (talk) 14:27, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Departing Hawaii (November 14–17, 1874)

KAVEBEAR Did you drop in the paragraph about Kalakaua's departing birthday celebration intending to edit it later? It does seem like a big glut of a paragraph. — Maile (talk) 15:11, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I remove a good chunk of it just now.KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:13, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

General note on content

As I researched through materials putting this together, I felt that dropping in "... he went here .... then this happened ... and next he did ..." was a choppy and inefficient way to present the subject matter. In my own need to understand why one event happened the way it did, or significance of any individual or group, I found myself spending a lot of time on research. It should be easier for the casual reader, or any school child. Therefore, I tried to include enough so that the overall flow is understandable, and nobody should have to refer to other Wikipedia pages, or external sourcing, just to understand.

Nothing about Kalakaua can be told in a couple of sentences. When he arrived, America just swooned in his presence. I think it is important to note that he was a career politician doing what came naturally to him. And as much as the surface might seem like he was taking a grand vacation, both he and his handlers had a purpose for it all. — Maile (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

DYK

KAVEBEAR, when you nominate this at DYK, you can use Psalm 134 for a QPQ.

Whatever you want for a hook will be OK with me. I think you mentioned a Kalakaua-PT Barnum hook, and that would be fun. Also, if you could come up with an idea for a Kalakaua-Mark Twain hook, that would be good also.

I just found a great one and added the text to the San Francisco section. It addresses a contradiction that I found about the entire trip - that is, America wasn't that far away from a bitter war over slavery that divided the nation. Until the latter half of the 20th century, persons of color in some parts of America were not even allowed to attend the same schools. So, I found coverage by an African-American owned newspaper that addresses that same wonderment. Here and there in the east coast newspapers would be an opinion of the same topic.

... that Kalākaua's 1874–75 state visit to the United States made the African-American Pacific Appeal newspaper wonder if there was "a sudden abandonment of colorphobia prejudice". (190 characters)

Just a thought. It's certainly hooky, IMO. — Maile (talk) 14:43, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

FYI - apparently, my subscription to both newspapers.com and newspaperarchive both expired sometime yesterday, with no advance warning. I've applied for a renewal, but I think last time the renewal took weeks, perhaps months. So ... thank goodness I did a lot of this sourcing as clippings so I can still view much of what I used. — Maile (talk) 23:20, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah that is a great hook.KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:11, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Would you like to carry this forward alone? You seem to have it all thought out and ready to nominate. I’ve been too busy with work to edit on Wikipedia lately. Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 14:05, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

No. I will publish the article as planned. I am not willing to nominate at DYK. In fact, it's OK with me if this never goes through DYK. Let me know if you're not nominating this, and I won't have to wait to publish it. — Maile (talk) 14:22, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I will also add, just so we are very clear about this, that not only will I not nominate at DYK, but I really am not interested in participating in the review if it does get nominated. That is not a place I want to be right now. — Maile (talk) 23:33, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I understand. Just create when you plan. I already create the nom page and will post on DYK when page is created.KAVEBEAR (talk) 13:28, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I added a cropped image, if we're going with that hook. I will publish the article this weekend. — Maile (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

KAVEBEAR It is done. — Maile (talk) 00:15, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

MOD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

King Kalākaua's 91-day journey across the United States, and back again, began on November 17, 1874. On this state visit, the Hawaiian King made history as the first reigning monarch to visit the United States. His trip to Washington, D.C. saw two diplomatic firsts: one was the United States Congress holding their first joint meeting in the body's history, less formal than a joint session, specifically to receive him; the second was President Ulysses S. Grant hosting him as honoree of the first state dinner at the White House.

Three sentences. 6 commas, one colon and one semi-colon. It's a little choppy, isn't it? Could the third sentence be broken up?--MarchOrDie (talk) 12:43, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:FAC:Kalākaua's 1874–75 state visit to the United States. — Maile (talk) 13:14, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll post there instead. --MarchOrDie (talk) 13:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Joint Meetings and joint Sessions of the United States Congress

Please refer to:

"1st to Present Congress | US House of Representatives: History, Art & Archives". history.house.gov.

For those unclear on processes of the United States Congress, a Joint Session and a Joint Meeting are two different official/ceremonial processes and should be not be shortened to "a session" or "a meeting". The US Senate and House of Representatives typically hold separate processes. They only come together for special events, and it takes a vote in both bodies for either of these events to happen. Joint Sessions usually happen in the Chamber of the House of Representatives. Of the two, a Joint Meeting is rare, more informal, and is not held in the chamber of either body, but in a private room.

In the case of Kalākaua, the Joint Meeting was held in "the President's room at the rear of the Senate Chamber."

"Miscellany: A King in the Capitol". The Manhattan and de la Salle Monthly. New York Catholic Protectory: 103–104. 1875.

The terminology in the article is correct as written. — Maile (talk) 12:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Benicia

Whiting was a junior officer on the Benicia. Hopkins was the captain of the ship. Also you had a sourcing problem. Kuykendall doesn’t mention Whiting. I am not doubting he accompanied the king but I don’t know which source you are using that includes him but it’s not Kuykendall. Can you remove Whiting’s introduction to a more appropriate place? KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:11, 7 December 2018 (UTC) Am

I can't imagine I would have added Whiting without a source. But after over 1,300 edits to this article, I'm not sifting backwards to find out what happened where. What I have done is left his first mention (and added his title) in the last paragraph of San Francisco, where they are boarding the train. He is sourced in that. Thanks so much for catching this. — Maile (talk) 12:33, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Map request

The details of the trip:

Honolulu→San Francisco→across America by rail→Washington D. C. and the eastern seaboard states listed

Return trip: Niagara Falls→Chicago→Milwaukee→Missouri→San Francisco→Honolulu

This is the basic trip. Details are in the section headers of the article. — Maile (talk) 21:26, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Was there any stops between Fort Wayne, Indiana and DC?KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:58, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Unknown. Probably not, given the time span. — Maile (talk) 12:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

This map was done and is now in the article. — Maile (talk) 15:33, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Typo on the map fixed. — Maile (talk) 15:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)