Talk:Ka-Bar/Archives/2016

De-Bunking "KA-BAR"

In the last lines of the article regarding the "ka-bar" fighting knife, it is suggested that the name comes from 'knife attachment, browning automatic rifle'. It is my feeling that this is a terribly deceptive fiction. At the time of the acceptance of the Ka-Bar bayonets were separate, much longer pieces of cutlery from a soldiers fighting knife. Provisions on the knife for bayonet lug attachment in some models are a recent occurrence, to accommodate a knife to the M-16 platform. The original knife, and most examples still in service were never intended, nor designed to be rifle mounted. Secondly, to my knowledge, The BAR, or browning automatic rifle, never had a provision for bayonet mounting. The BAR is a large, heavy magazine fed .30-06 medium machine gun. It would be difficult to use in hand to hand combat for all but the largest of persons, and its sheer mass as a bludgeon would be more than sufficient if it were. But most importantly the BAR was equipped with an integral bi-pod mount at the muzzle, which left no room for a bayonet lug. The BAR is a squad support weapon, and mounting a bayonet on it would be as sensible as attaching a sword to a tank's main gun. You could, but why would you want to? The Ka-Bar companies claims about the name's origins may itself be a fiction, but it is at least not a fiction that contradicts observable facts. Facts that seem to include, by no small consequence, that the knife bore the name Ka-Bar BEFORE it was accepted for military service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.229.148.149 (talk) 05:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

I must agree with the above...KA-BAR probably never meant "knife attachment - browning automatic rifle". Wonder if the KA might be "knife, accessory" or some such? (think how the military uses the commas when making official supply descriptions).... But anyway my guess (uneducated) is that KA-BAR is a phrase from the civilian side, not the military. Anybody know who the actual designer was?Engr105th 18:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Mine definitely has no bayonet attachment. Generally our "official" Marine Corps gear had alpha-numerical designations such as M16 for our rifles or M9 for our pistols. While I concede that the original KA-BAR knifes were well before my time, I highly doubt that they were ever used as bayonets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.64.128 (talk) 02:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm extremely skeptical of the statement in the article that all knives in the U.S. military were originally bayonets. I'm pretty sure this statement is flat out wrong. I have asked for a citation of the statement in the article. Also, the "more likely" part of the statement sounds more like an editorial comment than a fact. --HarryHenryGebel 07:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Concerning the origin of the "KA-BAR" expression, from Name.jsp at KaBar.com, back in the United Cutlery era, a trapper had written a positive report on a United hunting knife that, when his rifle jammed, he used to win the fight of his life against a wounded and raging bear. Incidentally, this Article could use more and better detail on the development of the Knife Mk 2 Mods 0 and 1, which, as I understand things, the United States Navy actually started due to problems encountered with the Knife Mk 1 Mod 0.

And to answer User:HarryHenryGebel, when the United States Marine Corps sent out the Request for Proposals for new fighting knives during World War II, they already had the U. S. Bayonet 1905 (a United States Army development), in service on the U. S. Rifles Cal. .30 1903/1905, 1903A3, and M1; the U.S.N. needed a better diving knife at the same time as the U.S.M.C. RfP. Only very recently did the U.S.M.C. develop a bayonet from the subject of this Article: the U. S. Bayonet M10, manufactured by the Ontario Knife Company. — B. C. Schmerker (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The bear story is pure PR. Compare with 1970's ads like this https://books.google.se/books?id=AOFHGk_4VcgC&pg=PA175&dq=ka-bar+legend+bear&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=876nVJ2NNsmuUeajgZgL&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false where it's obvious that it isn't a historical fact. Hexmaster.se (talk) 10:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I always understood that it referred to Knife Accessory Browning Automatic Rifle, As all other rifles had a Bayonet that could also be used as a fighting knife. The Browning Automatic Rifle had no Bayonet, so the KA-BAR was issued to the BAR Men to use as a fighting Knife. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.223.57.212 (talk) 21:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

• First, the Union Cutlery Co. (NOT the United Cutlery Co.!) of Olean, NY began using the (trademarked) name KA-BAR on its automatic switchblade folding knives and in its advertising circulars in 1923. The KA-BAR trademark on these knives was generally stamped low on the blade's ricasso, partially hidden by the knife bolster, but it is there - in 1923. Second, the definitive history of the BAR, Rock In A Hard Place, by James L. Ballou contains no reference whatsoever to BAR men being issued fighting knives with the type designation "Knife Attachment - Browning Automatic Rifle", "Knife Accessory - BAR", etc, etc. at any time in the BAR's military service. Third, in answer to claims that the USMC Knife, Fighting Utility was intended to be or derived from a BAR bayonet, only one bayonet has ever been found that was expressly made to fit the BAR.(Ballou, pp. 225-226). This bayonet was a standard, very long (16.5-inch blade) M1917 Enfield bayonet fitted at the Winchester factory with a special muzzle ring and attached to a standard M1918 BAR by means of a special experimental flash hider assembly. This prototype bayonet came with a tag printed on one side Winchester Repeating Arms Co./New Haven Conn., and handwitten on the other side in elegant script is the title Combined Flash Hider, Front Sight and Bayonet Mount for Browing Automatic Rifle Model 1918 with Bayonet and Scabbard and the date - September 7, 1918. There is no evidence whatsoever of military adoption nor a military stock number, name, or classification. Fourth, the combat knife prototype which was eventually adopted as the original USMC Knife, Fighting Utility was developed in late 1942 by US Marine Corps officers Colonel John M. Davis and Major Howard E. America in conjunction with machinists and cutlery workers at the Camillus Cutlery Co. The USMC knife designation of this knife was 1219C2 - not 'KA-BAR', not 'Knife Attachment, BAR' not 'Knife Accessory, BAR'. Only after the 1219C2 knife was already in production at Camillus and had been delivered to the USMC did the U.S. Navy decide to also adopt the 1219C2 as the US Navy Utility Knife, Mark 2. It was at this time that Union Cutlery Co. won a military contract to produce the 1219C2 (later designated the USMC Mark 2 Combat Knife or Knife, Fighting Utility). Only Union Cutlery stamped its trademark 'KA-BAR' on all Fighting Utility knives it produced under its wartime military contract.

• So much for the BAR fighting knife/bayonet story. Of all the USMC/USN Fighting Utility knives issued during the war by the four wartime manufacturers of this knife - Camillus, Union Cutlery, PAL Cutlery, and Robeson, only Union Cutlery Company's knives were marked KA-BAR on the ricasso - right where the company had always placed its KA-BAR trademark since 1923. (BTW, Union Cutlery Co. changed its name to KA-BAR in 1952).Dellant (talk) 02:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
• Location Of Makers Marks? Many WW2 Examples, show the name of the company on the Hand Guard of the knife. Later periods show the company name on the [(ricasso)]. Many USN knives have the handguard marked during the ww2 Era, with the addition of "KABAR as well as any other details. The other WW2 Era knives do not shoe KABAR, but the other details. Not sure what is true? Question about Vietnam period knives? Their may be Synthetic plastic Scabbards during during the Vietnam Era. Does Anyone know how to date any time periods? Should become a new area of discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phildurr2 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 25 June 2016 (UTC)