Talk:Kaʻiulani/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Kaʻiulani. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Move proposals

->Princess Victoria Kaiulani or -> Victoria Kaiulani, Princess of Hawai'i or -> Princess Victoria Kaiulani of Hawai'i

according to Wikipedia´s own rules of naming royalty, this needs to be changed. Antares911 23:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. Unnecessary. Non-European royalty are not under that naming convention. The basic reason why royals in Europe have territorial designations is that first names are so common between countries that country name is the next useful thing for disambiguation. But here Victoria Kaiulani clearly needs no disambiguation. 217.140.193.123 8 July 2005 22:16 (UTC)
Oppose, for the same reasons listed by the anonymous user above. 青い(Aoi) 8 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)
Oppose Agree with anonymous user. --Gmosaki 14:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

queen

How could Stevenson have memorialized her if he died before she did?

As Victoria Kaiulani was never a reigning monarch of the Kingdom of Hawai'i, I removed the appendage "of Hawaii" from the namespace and article title.

It is entirely appropriate and accurate for the article to be Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii (see Wiki titles and names) ... she must have her country designation as do other entries utilizing a royal woman's maiden name designation ... she had no other name, royally speaking, than Crown Princess, but since Wiki article titles do not use titles, I would suggest you rename the page "Victoria Kaiulani of Hawaii" ... do similarly with your other Hawaiian royalty pages ... Also, I don't understand the significance of the last sentence in your article. Also I think you should remove reference to her embodying the Aloha Spirit of Hawaii unless this is somehow official and known in Hawaiian history. Otherwise it sounds touchy-feely-weird. Mowens35 22:30, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removed the "Aloha Spirit" reference. 青い(Aoi) 08:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Someone might want to mention that the book White wrote about her was an historical fiction novel. The phrase used is misleading- it makes it sound like biography when its really part of Scholastic's "Royal Diaries" series. Oroneko 16:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

POV paragraph

A paragraph under "Late Years" said this:

"Doctors say she died from a health problem, native Hawaiians believe that their Princess died of a broken heart. She suffered so many losses in her life (her mother, Theo Davies, David Kalakaua, & her country for example). Her father also said that he thinks maybe his daughter was meant for the time of Hawai`i`s monarchy overthrow. He said that since Hawai`i was gone Ka`iulani should go too. She lives on though in Hawai`i`s Aloha Spirit."

The paragraph is strongly POV so I edited the paragraph to say this:

"Some Native Hawaiians believe that Ka‘iulani died of a broken heart, having suffered many losses in her life (her mother, Theo Davies, David Kalakaua, and her country, among other things). Her father also said that he thought that since Hawai‘i was gone, it was fitting for Ka‘iulani to go as well."

I think even this might be pushing NPOV a little though. I was hesitant to delete the paragraph entirely, however. Any suggestions? 青い(Aoi) 08:51, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The medical analysis is a bit questionable here. Is this an article or a romance novel?:

"... her childhood friend ... passed away and ... Her health slowly began to deteriorate...

... Ka‘iulani's health worsened when she learned that her half-sister, Annie Cleghorn, had passed away ...

... a warmer climate did not help her health ... Her health continued to deteriorate as she struggled to readjust to the subtropical climate ...

... while on a horse ride ..., she got caught in a storm and shortly came down with a fever ...

... Some Native Hawaiians believe that Ka‘iulani died of a broken heart."

And yet she was "known throughout the world for her ... determination"? Seems more on the delicate side. Sixten8 18:37, 2 August 2005 (UTC) and she died 1881 ok!!!!!

There was quite a bit of melodramatic prose that needed removing or rewording to be more encyclopedic. Here are some:

It was said that when she died, her peacocks screamed so loud that they had to be shot to silence them.

Her father said that he thought that since Hawaiʻi was gone, it was fitting for Kaʻiulani to go as well.

There seems to be enough material from reliable sources we do not need these unsourced statements. Sorry it took five years to work on it. W Nowicki (talk) 23:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Royal consorts and monarchs

hi there. i´m trying to get a discussion going to change the rules on naming consorts, monarchs, etc.. it´s a bit of mess at the moment. maybe you wanna join in and give your opinion? feel free [1] cheers Antares911 23:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, that discussion had been going, where almost everyone has opposed Antares' schemes and propositions. Nothing came out of Antares' (who also has some sockpuppets such as User:at33) suggestions but a huge mess. Meanwhile, Antares had been busy to name articles according to those proposed Antares' rules (and even making cut-paste-moves). There are now a number of articles littered here around WP where Antares has written a full titulary in almost all paragraphs. I have nowhere else seen such bunch of repetitions of "Her Royal Highness the Princess, the Princess of...." and likes. The word sycophancy got to some use in related talks. 217.140.193.123 07:10, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Overthrow

Changed the following sentence: "In 1893, a revolution occurred and the Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown."

The word revolution imples the native population had revolted against the crown and deposed the monarchy. This does not properly characterize the overthrow as I understand it to have occurred. The overthrow is commonly taught to have been accomplished by powerful American businessmen dismayed at the commercial and diplomatic ties between the Hawaiian government and the British monarchy (and possibly their position vis-a-vis competing British business interests). The overthrow was effectuated using American marines from a warship docked at Honolulu harbor who were invited by the commercial interests to depose the queen in order to protect the American's property.

It has always been implied that the claims of the Americans were overblown in order to serve as a pretext to their real goal of annexation by the United States. Whatever the merits of the businessmen's claims of threat to life or livelihood under a queen who sought to increase her monarchal power, I hardly think their action amounts to a "revolution." So to preserve objectivity I deleted that portion. The sentence now reads: "In 1893, the Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown."

For more information on the overthrow and the response of the United States, I would direct readers to the article on Queen Liliuokalani.

poem

Actually, Stevenson's poem was for Ka'iulani when she was going to England, not for her death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim Bart (talk • contribs) 02:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC) [[Image: $Example.jpg$ --~~~~Insert non-formatted text here#REDIRECT [[ Insert textSuperscript text]]]]

Books

One of the books that tells alot about Prinsess Kaiulani is "The Royal Diaries"

Famous Speech

Her speech has some problem areas.

"Seventy years ago, Christian America sent over Christian men and women to give religion and civilization to Hawaiʻi. Today, three of the sons of those missionaries are at your capitol asking you to undo their father’s work. Who sent them? Who gave them the authority to break the Constitution which they swore they would uphold? Today, I, a poor weak girl with not one of my people with me and all these ‘Hawaiian’ statesmen against me, have strength to stand up for the rights of my people. Even now I can hear their wail in my heart and it gives me strength and courage and I am strong - strong in the faith of God, strong in the knowledge that I am right, strong in the strength of seventy million people who in this free land will hear my cry and will refuse to let their flag cover dishonor to mine!""Princess Kaiulani". Women in history of Scots descent web site. Electric Scotland USA.

Different sources seems to vary between "They gave us the gospel. They made us a nation, and we learned to love and trust America." and "Who sent them? Who gave them the authority to break the Constitution which they swore they would uphold?" and some version says "a wail" rather than "their wail." Was there any newspaper published at the time that recorded the speech in the princess' original words? And if it was a press meeting how come there are no photographs of the princess from this press meeting?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:24, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Fiancees

It seems that Koa wasn't the only rumored fiancee of Princess Kaiulani. There was an Captain Putnam Bradlee Strong, son of ex-Mayor Strong who later married an American actress named May Yohe, and also Andrew Adams of the staff of The Hawaiian Star in Honolulu. Check this picture and this newspaper article on her death, and this internet article. A fictional book was written about Adams and Kaiulani's romance, see Love Finds You in Lahaina, Hawaii. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Info box image

I made the bold edit to change the image to what I felt was a little more appropriate. The new image is not cropped from a full body shot and is a proper head and shoulders portrait and there is no distracting, feathered hat.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup begun

I am cleaning up the article and references. The Cultural impact section had too much unsourced content and material only sourced to non RS.--Amadscientist (talk) 23:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Father's quote

Her father also said that he thought that since Hawaii was gone, it was fitting for Kaʻiulani to go as well.

The accuracy of this quote has been brought up to me a while back ago and I rememeber that her father never said anything resembling this. I think it was used in one of her biography but from the author's perspective not her quoting her father. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Kaʻiulani.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:22, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

POV Paragraph

The fifth paragraph in this section is written in a non-encyclopedic tone, and appears to be written with the purpose of portraying the Princess as positively as possible, and the press of the time as negatively as possible, which is a violation of POV. It uses words and phrases such as "blatantly racist", "typical of the time", and "enemies of the Kingdom of Hawaii", all of which indicate the author's bias towards the Princess and bias against those who opposed her. This page should be written about the Princess, but not from her point of view. This paragraph also includes only one source, relating strictly to the death of Robert Louis Stevenson, and none supporting the claims made about opposition to the Princess. While it is entirely possible that the paragraph is factually accurate, it needs to be rewritten with supporting sources and a neutral tone. Thegkl (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

The Kaʻiulani Project

Jennifer Fahrni founded the Princess Kaʻiulani Project to celebrate the life, spirit and legacy of Princess Kaʻiulani. Their goal is to reveal Kaʻiulani as a heroine who fought for her nation in its hour of need, and to serve as a meeting place and reference for other works about the Princess. The project includes Kaʻiulani: The Island Rose, a fact-based screenplay and stage play researched and written since 2003 by Fahrni and Carol Harvie-Yamaguchi, and a biography Princess Ka'iulani – Her Life and Times. The script was first performed as a public reading April 12, 2008 in Kahului, Hawaii on Maui.Jennifer Fahrni (2008). "The Ka'iulani Project". Retrieved December 25, 2010.

@Maile66: I say archive it in the talk page and remove it from here. If anything comes up in the future, it can be reincorporated. KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:43, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Moving this here. This project has been inactive for years, and may have only existed to produce a film or stage biography. — Maile (talk) 12:52, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Move proposals

queen

POV paragraph

Royal consorts and monarchs

Overthrow

poem

Books

Famous Speech

Fiancees

Info box image

Cleanup begun

Father's quote

External links modified

External links modified

Further reading

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

POV Paragraph

The Kaʻiulani Project