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Talk:Junkers W 33

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First flight

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According to this it flew on 17 June 1926. Drutt (talk) 22:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

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Removed Military History tag as out of scope. Not everything Nazi Germany employed falls under Military History. --dashiellx (talk) 17:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Citations

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I've added material and specs from Turner's book, which I hope will prove to be reliable: it feels sound. It's better than what we had before, which was nothing!

In the reorganisation the fist para of the old history section has gone for now. Two reasons

    • It was (I felt) in the wrong place, a lot of detail about production sites before we had met the subject of the article, the plane. I suggest that whatever replaces it goes at the end of the Design and Development section where production is discussed.
    • I have not found any evidence that the W 33 was produced anywhere but Dessau. Absence of evidence ... of course. We know both the Russian and Swedish plants were used by Junkers for some aircraft. The F 13 was produced in Sweden in the difficult years 1921-2 when all aircraft production was forbidden, but that was earlier than any W 33 production. Probably, for the same reasons some F 13s were built at Fili, as were some Junkers fighters. But the W 33 was built when most restrictions on civil aircraft production had been lifted (maybe engine power could still have been an issue), so it is not immediately obvious why they had to be built abroad. So I think there is a need for a source to show definitely that W 33s were produced in Sweden and/or in Russia, and how many if possible. There is no such evidence in Turner.TSRL (talk) 11:23, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The WikiP list of Swedish aircraft types gave dates and numbers (1), and from the manufacturer's name (Junkers/Flygindustri) a hint that it may have been built or assembled in Sweden. I've added a cautious note. TSRL (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • The GoldenYears register for Russia shows about 9 (at least) built there. Two odd things about this: they were built, or at least appeared on the civil reg very late (1934, 1935) and also they were not built at Fili but Plant no. 89. JAWA 1938 says Fili was Plant no. 22.TSRL (talk) 17:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bill Gunston's The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft 1875-1995 has "At least 70" PS-4s built at Fili with Junkers L-5 engine, in use to 1941, with 7 to Dobrolyet, 10 with TsARB (whoever or whatever they are) and 25 military.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • However, the register for Colombia shows no W 33s. SCADTA did use Junkers F 13s and W 34s. Unless someone can show they did use W 33s, SCADTA needs removing from the the user list.TSRL (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Von Rauch (the Air Enthusiast reference on the Leticia war) has SCADTA having a fleet including several Junkers F 13s, two Dornier Merkurs, a Dornier Wal 34 flying boat, one Junkers W 33 and four W 34s. The Wal, W.33 and two of the F 13s were transferred to the Columbian Aviacíon Militar on the outbreak of the war, while SCADTA acted as agents for procuring further aircraft from Germany for the Aviacíon Militar, including a further three Wals, two Dornier C2s three Junkers K43s and six Ju 52/3ms. It has a photo of a Junkers W 33, with no apparent registration, captioned "the sole Columbian W 33 seen still in the Livery of SCADTA which relinquished it to Columbia's Aviacíon Militar when hostilities began with Peru".Nigel Ish (talk) 18:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, this website appears to state that SCADTA operated at least one W33.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair do's! Let's let SCADTA stand as W 33 runners. GoldenYears only claims to be a "work in progress", not complete though it's very useful. I wonder why the photo shows no registration. Thanks for clearing an outstanding question.TSRL (talk) 20:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While no obvious registration is visible on the photo (and the aircraft shown definately has an inline engine and hence is a W33 rather than a W34)- it does have 33 on the tail - which if it is a registration corresponds with C-33 on the GoldenYears website [1] - 'Cundinamarca', which it says is a W34 but was transferred to the Columbian Govenment in 1932, which corresponds with the outbreak of the war (August/September 1932) - it looks as if the register may have confused W33s and W34s.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The inline sounds pretty definite: does it lack the 3 windows of the W 34 as well? Do you have any photos of other SCADTA or even other civil Colombian aircraft to confirm that's where they put the reg, with no C? That might help us to be sure the 33 was not a type number. While reg numbers are small (2/3 digits), the fin is an obvious place to put it, I suppose. Sounds a neat solution of yours! Maybe an email to GoldenYears?TSRL (talk) 21:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The aircraft in the photo is in floatplane configuration and has the flat-topped fuselage of the W33/W34 (i.e. definately not the "humped " cockpit of the F-13) and has one round window and what looks like two square ones. It appears to be in typical Junkers colour scheme of bare metal fuselage and black nose. The tail marking is "33" and what appears to be a downwards pointing arrow (possibly a SCADTA marking?).Nigel Ish (talk) 15:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And here are photos of F 13s operated by SCADTA - they have a similar colour scheme and have a tail marking of a number and a triangle which appears to contain a stylised "C", which could be what I interpreted as a downwards pointing arrow.Nigel Ish (talk) 15:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nice pics. I checked on one, no. 22 Huila-2 on GoldenYears and indeed it was C-22. So the fin/wing number is the reg and the Rauch photo is of C-33. The inline seems to make it pretty surely a W 33 as you say; my only residual worry is with the windows, for I thought W 33s either had none or a small one in the port side freight door. The W 34 had three rectangular ones, one in the port side passenger door just aft of the trailing edge, the other two forward of that. Colombian with saw comes to mind, but this was not a wood skin.TSRL (talk) 17:26, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • The Swedish register (GoldenYears) does mention that 4 aircraft were Swedish CoA'd but not SE- registered. They sound like Swedish assembled exports. It's all a bit implicit, but I've put back a note about the Swedish and Russian works at the end of D&D. More solid evidence would be welcome, though. Is there a ref for the failed Pacific flight?TSRL (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All I've found so far on the Pacific flight is a note in Flight 19321006, which expresses concern over the lack of contact with an aircraft, just described as a Junkers which was attempting to fly from Samushira to San Francisco.TSRL (talk) 21:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Records

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There is a conflict between http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/hero/pulp/resources/vehicles/junkers.html and Turner. The former logs two records, one for distance and one for endurance; Turner gives one only, for endurance but the time he gives is that quoted by mojobob for the distance record. It looks as if Turner may have conflated the two, but does anyone have a more reliable source? One problem is that many lists of records only give the "best of year" and in 1927 things were developing quickly.TSRL (talk) 12:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


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