Talk:Juana Maria/Archive 1

Archive 1

Dysentery

The article attributes her death to dysentery, then says it may have been her fondness for rich food that brought it on. Dysentery is caused by bacteria, not by the richness of food. I feel that this should be corrected. If she exhibited a fondness for certain foods, that's interesting information, but it could not have brought on her death by dysentery.

I find this woman's story to be fascinating and important so I would like to see it accurately reported.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sophia pearl (talk • contribs)

That's a good point, I removed the line. If the food did contribute to her death, it was because it was infected. If the food's "richness" is somehow involved, it will need a source.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

During the Holocaust thousands of survivors died after eating rich foods like meat, chocolate and suger due to a weakened digestive system. Sources on Juana María say she could have died from either the foods "richness" or dysentery - and both are plausible and, more importantly, neither were referenced. I don't think it's good practice to remove one for lacking sources and keep the other. --Mad Max 03:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

And so I didn't remove it, but hid it until it could be verified. What sources are you referring to? This article needs better references.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Many internet sources highlight an altered diet as a contributing factor to her death. For instance, one of the websites we cite as a source in this Wikipedia article, the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History, states "In town, the new living conditions and altered diet affected the woman's health. She contracted dysentery and died..." [1] Whether or not the diet is what actually killed her can hardly be verified. I'm sure we can't verify dysentery as the sole reason for her death either, as dysentery isn't always fatal, but I'm sure eating foods that your body cannot handle sure doesn't help with recovery. In any case, I think the altered diet deserves mention. By the way, thanks for hiding the text until it can be cited without removing it. I didn't see that last time, so my fault. --Mad Max 22:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

eating green corn will cause bodily effects that would likely have resembled dysentery to observers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.49.6.225 (talk) 06:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

"Rescue"

In various places (including a heading) the article speaks of Juana Maria's "rescue" from San Nicolas Island. The word "rescue" strikes me as non-neutral language, presenting an awfully rosy view of an action that appears to have caused Juana Maria's death. (And one would think the folks at the Mission should have anticipated this risk, since the other folks they'd had "rescued" had apparently died too, while she survived alone on the island for many years.) I would propose a more neutral word like "transport" or "removal" be substituted in place of "rescue," both in the heading and where it occurs in the text of the article. Al Bradbury (talk) 06:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

That would be fine. Note, however, that she was not "transported" by the mission, but by George Nidever and his fur-trapping crew. She did not live at the mission when she to the mainland, she lived with Nidever and his family. Additionally, no one at the time could have had any knowledge about how diseases spread, if disease is even what caused her death (the accounts, unknowledgeable on the subject as they are, vary). I don't know that "removal" is the best word, as it seems too close to "Indian removal", which isn't very similar to what happened here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Another great achievement by the great explorers. You live your life on an island in isolation perfectly fine for 18 years, then they find you and 50 days later you're dead.

Arrival of the Fur Trappers

Hi there, just finished reading the book Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott O'Dell and thought I'd like to know more. I've perused this page and the one on the Nicoleño people, and just thought I'd mention - this section contradicts the other page on numerous points (eg. Timing of the massacre of the people, 1811 vs 1813; whether there was a concerted effort to rescue the people of San Nicolas, etc.) I have more important things I really must do in the near future, but someone should really look into this and fix it! Sailor7sakura (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

I just linked a page I just made about the Russian ship that brought the RAC otter hunters, Il’mena (it brought hunters several times over a number of years, as did a couple US ships hired by the RAC). You're right that this page and Nicoleño could use some work. I fixed the date issues: The hunters came in 1814 (and several more times between 1815-1819, and probably a bunch more times). Il’mena was only acquired by the RAC in January 1814. I haven't read Island of the Blue Dolphins, but from what I understand it is quite fictionalized and the true story is much more complicated and, I suspect, interesting. For example, a bunch of the Russians and Aleuts were captured by the Spanish. A couple of them escaped from Santa Barbara and kayaked to San Nicolas Island. There were no RAC people there so they stayed, waiting, for over three years (one died after about a year). Ivan Kyglaia, who survived, said the Nicoleño treated them very well and were "happy of their arrival and their stay on the island", despite the massacre just a year or so earlier. The other, Filip Atash’sha, was probably buried on the island, and I think archaeologists are looking for his grave. Also, another of the Aleut hunters was tortured and killed by the Spanish for not renouncing his Russian Orthodox faith, according to Kyglaia, for which he was canonized as Saint Peter the Aleut. Another interesting bit is that in 1818 the Nicoleño helped Kyglaia hide when two "Spanish" ships visited, which were probably the ships of the French-Argentine corsair Hippolyte Bouchard. Weird to think that the crazy Bouchard was on the island only a few years after the massacre, and the Nicoleño protected the Aleut who had been part of the massacre!

Anyway, the references and external links on the Il’mena page have lots more info. This site in particular, https://www.nps.gov/subjects/islandofthebluedolphins/index.htm by the National Park Service, seems very good at comparing the book to reality, noting the many differences, going through the book chapter by chapter, summarizing the book's chapters and "fact checking" with various points, and with links to various primary sources, like RAC letters and such. It seems aimed as school kids a bit, but quite good nonetheless. Also, somewhere in these sources, I can't remember where, it is pointed out that the photo said to "probably" be of Juana Maria can't actually be her, due to large discrepancies between known dates of her life and the photo. Pfly (talk) 09:11, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Her Name ?

Is there any information about her original name? It's sad that we only know her by the name that the was given to her by the Christian Church just before she died and not the name she lived her life by. 2600:1010:B048:BD91:848E:37DE:A1BA:A8C8 (talk) 03:28, 4 March 2020 (UTC)