Talk:Joseph McGinley

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Reliable source?

The following discussion is copied from User talk:WikiDan61 and User talk:Rockypopod, where Rockypopod and I have been discussing the reliability of a source used on this page. The source in question is

Mac Fhionnghaile, Niall (1985). Dr Mc Ginley and his Times. Leitir Ceanainn: An Crann.

From Wikidan61's talk page:

Hi,

Many thanks for the corrections on the Joseph Mc Ginley Wikipedia page. I would like to know however why the book Dr Mc Ginley and his times is noted as an unreliable source by you? The author gleamed all his information from Dr Mc Ginley's contemporaries and revolutionary comrades who were still alive at the time. The book is available in the Irish library system and to order online, although they copies are hard to get now, if you need check for yourself. Rockypopod (talk) 17:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockypopod: As I noted in the "unreliable source" tag, the reason the source was deemed possibly unreliable is that the book was self-published, by an author of no recognized historical expertise. Being self-published, it is likely that no editorial oversight or fact-checking process was involved, so there is no way to establish that we can trust this source of information. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:16, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From Rockypopod's talk page:

So, you asked me my I called Dr McGinley and His Times an unreliable source, which I explained, but, apparently dissatisfied with my answer, you proceeded to remove the {{rs}} tag from the article anyway. I've reverted that change. If you disagree with my assessment, it would behoove you to discuss the matter so that we can come to a consensus about the issue.

While you have listed the publisher of this volume as "An Crann", a publisher in Leitir Ceanainn (Letterkenny), I can find no information about these publishers. (The closest I can find is this listing at NLI, which lists An Crann as a journal / serial. [https://books.google.com/books?id=71vzGAAACAAJ Google books lists this book as self-published. In either case, the book has not been published by a noted publisher of reliable histories, nor is the author (Niall Mac Fhionnghaile) identifiably a known historian. Because of these reasons, his histories of the time periods may or may not be reliable, and a discussion of the matter is warranted. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 19:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Back to WikiDan61's talk page:

Hi wikidan,

My apologies for the thoughtless removal of the unreliable source tag. As I am familiar with the author who is a very capable UCD english graduate, and a son of Joseph Mc Ginley. Many of Dr Mc Ginley's old comrades were still alive at the time and he was able to inview them about their experiences. Personally, to me, a book being published by a known publisher is not mark of honesty and fact. Countless, well known biographies bear testimony to this. All editors have an agenda. I understand Wikipedia's positon though and they can only go by what information they can get online.

Kind regards Rockypopod (talk) 14:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockypopod: The issue isn't whether the information is available online. The question is whether the information is reliable. Books in print that are accessible at any public library are acceptable as references, if they are reliable sources. Unfortunately, a book about McGinley, self-published by his son, a "capable UCD english [sic] graduate" (but not a trained historian), is not a reliable source. I strongly urge you to read Wikipedia's guidelines on reliable sources. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He has written another book Donegal Ireland and the first world war and has been invited on national Irish language me to share his knowledge on the subject. https://www.rte.ie/radio/rnag/clips/21015099/. There was no demand from publishers for books on local history when he was writing as there is now. Rockypopod (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

me * radio Rockypopod (talk) 14:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockypopod: I don't think the RTE appearance is sufficient to establish him as a subject-matter expert on the topic of the Irish War of Independence, and since he was McGinley's son, the matter of his neutrality is questionable. However, to avoid this being a discussion of me vs. you, I'm going to copy this discussion to Talk:Joseph McGinley, and then post a notices at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard to alert other editors of the issue and allow them to weigh in. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockypopod: I've raised this matter at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Hopefully other editors will weigh in with their opinions to build consensus on the matter. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:09, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the Wikipedia has strict rules and rightly so. In the probable scenario that the book is not accepted as a reliable source, the information on Mc Ginley's actions in the war of Independence, is in both Dr Mc Ginley and his times and Liam O Duibhir's book on Donegal and the war of Independence, which you have listed as a reliable source. As regards the gold medal for surgery, I will contact Queens university to get official verification. Rockypopod (talk) 16:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockypopod: O Duibhir's book appears to be a legitimately published history, with the likelihood that it was fact-checked at least in some degree, so we can accept that as a reliable source. As for McGinley's academic record: unless Queen's University has published its list of "gold medal" recipients for public access, any reply they give to your inquiry will not be admissible as a source. Per Wikipedia's verifiability guidelines, Source material must have been ''published, the definition of which for the purposes of Wikipedia is made available to the public in some form. Private correspondences do not qualify as such published sources. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 16:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine wiki Dan. I will talk to them and see what they have. Rockypopod (talk) 16:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]