Talk:Joseph Barbera

Academy Awards

Hannah and Barbera did not win seven Oscars, they were nominated twice and did not win; editors are probably getting them confused with Fred Quimby, who won seven Oscars for his work. 2407:7000:8752:C173:38F7:B374:CB40:A35F (talk) 03:12, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

You will need to provide reliable sources to show the sources that are in the article are incorrect ~ GB fan 10:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

The article itself does not state they won seven Oscars. It says Tom and Jerry, which they directed, won seven Oscars. Fred Quimby was given these Academy Awards as producer - you can even check Wikipedia's own articles on the matter. https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0053484/awards. I have clarified this in the intro. 125.239.43.95 (talk) 14:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• HBIwao&Me.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:07, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Intro For This Page

Why does this say that he joined Van Beuran Studios in 1927 and him joining Terrytoons in 1929? That contricts what this article says below? Evope (talk) 06:41, 19 November 2019 (UTC)Evan Kalani Opedal

Colonel Bleep

What sources claim Barbera had a hand in creative Colonel Bleep? Bob3458 (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

His Ethnicity, again....

This user @Zlogicalape has been pushing his POV recently, adding the claim that Barebra's parents were of Lebanese descent.

Barbera states in his own words in his autobiography (the most reliable source of information about him) that his father and mother were Italians/Sicilians, and his grandmother was from Sicily too. He also mentions that his ancestors were Sicilian; not a single mention of Lebanon whatsoever.

-On page 61 ( which I recently added to the citation but was removed by the same user ) he states:

"Also, having rediscovered the incredible home cooking I had shunned as a teenager — thinking back then that it savored too much of the old, square, backward world of my Sicilian ancestors — I was not eager to leave my mother's kitchen."

His ancestors were Sicilian and not Lebanese according to him.

-On page 19 he mentions his Sicilian mother:

"On the streets of the Lower East Side, my Sicilian mother had become fluent enough in Yiddish"

And again on page 34:

"My mother, this little Italian lady born in a Sicilian country village a world apan from Brooklyn"

-On page 58 he mentions his father:

"Dorothy and I had separated. She went back to her parents, who were just as happy that their Irish daughter was no longer living with the son of a Sicilian barber"

-On page 17 he mentions his grandmother:

"I told them it was my grandmother, Francesca Calvacca, who came to the Lower East Side of New York City from the little country town of Schiacca on the southern coast of Sicily in about 1898."

-And finally, on page 128 he says that he's Sicilian

You can access his autobiography through this link:

https://archive.org/details/mylifeintoonsfro00barb/page/n13/mode/1up?q=Italy

Since the Daily Telegraph is a reliable source per wiki:RSP, I added a note stating that the Daily Telegraph mentioned that he was of Lebanese descent without providing evidence and contradicting what Barbera states in his autobiography, but user @Zlogicalape reverted my edit.

Saying that "there's no contradiction"!!

I hope they explain what they mean and why they think we shouldn't take what Barbera states in his autobiography.

I think it couldn't have been more obvious that Joseph Barbera is of pure Sicilian origin. Whatsupkarren (talk) 18:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I've read the source. I will not go into the context of the passage in his autobiography, although stating having "Sicilian ancestors" is not the same as stating "all my ancestors are Sicilian". Moreover, AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED, there is no contradiction ! You can be Sicilian (Italian) by nationality and Lebanese in origin which is the current case as is the case of many Lebanese in Sicily.

Adding a note questioning the authenticity of the source which you called reliable is illogical and biased. You are choosing what to believe but since you cannot remove the Telegraph source, you are trying to question/scrutinize it "IN THE ARTICLE" at the BOTTOM as a NOTE as a way to delegitimize it which is not allowed.

If you truly care abt the "Truth", contact the Telegraph. Ask them, question them ... see where this goes Zlogicalape (talk) 19:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Zlogicalape There's nothing in his autobiography that even slightly implies he had Lebanese ancestry. He makes a big deal about being an Italian in his autobio, read again the quotes I provided. He says his father was Sicilian, his mother was Sicilian, and his grandmother was from Sicily, too; he talks about his Italian heritage, not his Lebanese heritage.

See see 23: "Among the many stupid and ridiculous things I've done in my life, the stupidest was generally to scorn my Italian heritage"

"although stating having "Sicilian ancestors" is not the same as stating "all my ancestors are Sicilian"

He could've mentioned his Lebanese ancestors, why wouldn't he? Oh also why did you revert my edit to add that his parents were of lebanese descent? You're implying in that phrasing that all of his ancestors were Lebanese!

Since he mentioned his sicilian ancestors and heritage, that means him being an Italian/Sicilian wasn't just a matter of papers or nationality.

There's simply no evidence that they were Lebanese. As far as I know, The only reliable impartial source that mentions this is the daily Telegraph, which didn't provide proof to support its claim. I think we all have to agree that the MOST reliable source comes from his own autobiography, not The daily Telegraph.

"Adding a note questioning the authenticity of the source which you called reliable is illogical and biased"

The overwhelming majority of the sources mention that Joseph Barbera was an Italian born to an Italian family, just because a reliable source says something doesn't mean we shouldn't question it and just add blindly what it says without checking what other reliable sources say, for example this article by The Guardian which is a reliable source mentions that his parents were Sicilians https://www.theguardian.com/film/2006/dec/20/usa

This article by The Independent says he was a son of Italian immigrants https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/joseph-barbera-429307.html

Also this book published University press of Mississippi and whose author Iwao Takamoto was one of Barbera's closest friends, says on page 155 that Barbera loved to make sure everyone knew about his Sicilian heritage (no mention of a Lebanese heritage)https://books.google.com/books?id=ipFG84BN9oIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gb_mobile_entity&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&hl=en&gl&focus=searchwithinvolume#v=onepage&q=Sicilian&f=false

This Book also published by University Press of Mississippi and says he was born to an Italian family https://books.google.com/books?id=d94BEQAAQBAJ&pg=PA1982-IA4&dq=joseph+barbera+italian&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAvcTu1pOIAxXUpP0HHVDpL5IQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q=joseph%20barbera%20italian&f=false

https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/201/edited_volume/chapter/3895358

This book published by Springer calls his second generation Italian https://books.google.com/books?id=PaueEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA83&dq=joseph+barbera+italian+immigrants&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjj-uX0pOIAxUL3wIHHSQYDzEQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=joseph%20barbera%20italian%20immigrants&f=false

This book published by Taylor & Francis

Says: "As was the case with many children of Italian immigrants, Barbera was not always willing to discuss his family background."

https://books.google.com/books?id=JUyAAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA95&dq=joseph+barbera+italian+immigrants&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjj-uX0pOIAxUL3wIHHSQYDzEQuwV6BAgHEAY#v=onepage&q=joseph%20barbera%20italian%20immigrants&f=false

If you're gonna go against what he says in his own autobiography and the overwhelming majority of the reliable sources to add the lebanese claim as if it's confirmed that his parents were lebanese then you're just pushing your minority view and creating a false balance

And lastly, there are quite a few Italians most of whom are from Sicily with the surname Barbera

Joseph Barbara (mobster)

Augusto Antonio Barbera

Alberto Barbera

Domenico Barbera

Renzo Barbera Whatsupkarren (talk) 22:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

1. The revert states that his father is of Lebanese origin (where did i state his parents were of Lebanese descent ?) 2. He states being Italian bcz HE IS Italian ! I don't think you're comprehending this ! Even I state that he is Italian. When the topic of his lineage comes up, it is mentioned that his Italian father is of Lebanese origin. He doesn't mention it bcz he has no connection to it nor does he know anything abt it ! (plus the possibility that his father simply abandoned him) 3. I personally identify with the country i was born and raised in (same as my parents, yet both are not originally from that country). I might mention my origins as part of my identity BUT that is bcz i dig into my past and look into it. Many others like me dont, and simply identify with the country they were born and raised in. 4.Think abt it this way, if we were to genetically test him and his parents and it showed that they are all Lebanese. Do you think that all the articles should remove the Italian identity ? Ofc not, cz he is still an Italian regardless ! 5. Barbera is common in Lebanon same as most things that you might think are strictly Italian. It is also the name of a known Lebanese Saint. 6. If you want closure for this then i suggest getting in contact with the Telegraph and finding out !

Zlogicalape (talk) 03:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@Zlogicalape I'm going to seek a third opinion Whatsupkarren (talk) 08:10, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Nope, i'm made a rational educated guess based on the sources. You on the other hand are performing your rationalizations to discredit the sources. 2. You're choosing what points to reply while ignoring/invalidating the other responses (as they were rational) and stuck to the same cyclic line of questioning. I gave you an example on myself as well as others to show you how your line of reasoning is flawed ! Saying it's irrelevant after you've asked the questions and i've answered is dubious ! 3. Bcz his father was indeed Sicilian (with Lebanese origins). As my father is a 'country X'ian (with country Y origins). 4.There is no clear contradiction. There is however a lack information. Seek the Melissa from the Telegraph (for the millionth time) and find your answers. It's easy, moooo ?!

Zlogicalape (talk) 14:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I actually emailed her and she hasn't replied, I don't think she will.

Yeah you don't really have to make guesses or original research here, such as your claim that he didnt know about his Lebanese connection. Here on Wikipedia we only have to deal with reliable sources, saying that his father was of Lebanese origin contradicts what Barbera says in his autobiography which is again the most reliable source of information about the person. The daily telegraph says both of his parents were of lebaese descent, it doesn't say they were sicilians of lebanese origin, or lebanese sicilians! which goes to say the daily teleraph quite likely made a mistake in that article, cuz if that were true, then why didn't he ever mention anything about a Lebanese/Arab heritage. You'd at least think he'd drop a hint somewhere in an interview or in his own autobiography, right? I'm trying to say that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say he was of Italian descent, and Barbera says that too, that's why it's more than enough to only state what the daily telegraph says in an explanatory note. Whatsupkarren (talk) 16:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

1. First off, Lebanese ain't Arab ! Referring to Lebanese as Arabs is similar to referring to Sicilians as Arabs. 2. If the Telegraph made such a grand mistake then they would have fixed it. 3. Agn, there is no contradiction ! Sources are stating that they are Italian bcz they are. Sources state the obvious. Few state the origin. I state that i'm country X (rarely does country Y come up) 4. Agn, i stated my rationalization to offer an answer to your guesses and your rationalizations. you are going against a reliable source making claims (guessing and original research). I just added some rationalization to what u started ! 5. A note in the bottom delegitimizes it (which is your aim) and therefore not at all acceptable ! It is mentioned in parenthesis in the Early life section where it should be ! 6. Keep mailing her or the Telegraph ! Who knows, you might just find something ! P.S: you're lucky we aren't making the argument for both parents

Zlogicalape (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The Daily Telegraph source says both of his parents were of Lebanese descent which is clearly contradicted by what Barbera says in his autobiography

"He doesn't mention it bcz he has no connection to it nor does he know anything abt it"

And how did you know that? Do you have reliable sources that mention Barbera knew nothing about his Lebanese origins? Youre essentially saying Melissa Whiteworth of the Daily Telegraph knows about Barbera more than Barbera knew about himslef. You're engaging now in Original research. You don't have to explain to me how you identify or how you might mention your origins, or what would happen if we genetically tested him, or a "possibility that his father abandoned him". This is irrelevant. the majority of the reliable sources mention him being a son of Italian immigrants. Barbera states in his autobiography that he was the son of a Sicilian barber, not Lebanese

Response to third opinion request:

Let's assume for a second that one or both Barbera's parents were unquestionably of Lebanese origin – would that help us gain an understanding of him or his life? It seems from his autobiography and other sources that he had no connection to or identification with any potential Lebanese heritage (and I see no argument made that being Lebanese was in any way impactful to his life), so in my opinion, the answer is "no." Per WP:NOTGENEALOGY: Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic. So I'd argue that any mention of Lebanese ancestry should be removed from the article as irrelevant to the reader's understanding of the subject. Wburrow (talk) 17:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC) Ofc it does, this isn't a great great great grandparent for us to consider its impact. Stating a parents' background does help us gain understanding into his life as well as the parent ! Bcz, if he knew abt it and didn't mention it then this offers great insight into his sentiments regarding his heritage and this is a topic of its own. This offers readers a whole new perception. Zlogicalape (talk) 22:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC) The parents' backgrounds are stated in his autobiography, we're going in circles at this point "this offers great insight into his sentiments regarding his heritage" He already talked about his sentiment regarding his heritage; he talked about his feeling of regret for having scorned his Italian heritage in his autobiography; we have a book by a dear friend of his who says that Barbera loved to make sure everyone knew about his sicilian heritage. Whatsupkarren (talk) 23:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC) @Zlogicalape I think you haven't provided convincing reasons. 99% of the reliable sources out there say his parents were Italian/Sicilians, and Barbera states that too in his autobiography. You're essentially saying others knew Barbera’s parents better than he did, and that his parents were Italians but of Lebanese origin. Yet the Daily telegraph doesn't say that, it simply says they were of Lebanese descent. They at least should've said his parents were Italians of Lebanese descent. I think they simply made a mistake. I totally agree with @Wburrow; the Lebanese descent should be taken out. Whatsupkarren (talk) 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC) Unfortunately "i think they made a mistake" doesn't work on Wikipedia The reasons are obvious. Besides the Telegraph there is clear distinction btw being Italian and being originally Lebanese. We've discussed this and your choosing to avoid this. All things aside, i've hinted previously at ur bias/identity and I would appreciate it if this charade would stop as i'm not in the mood to launch an investigation into multiple accounts (though i believe you couldn't care less) Zlogicalape (talk) 17:11, 28 August 2024 (UTC) We've been going in circles ever since you stuck to repeating the "it is not mentioned in his auto-bio and therefore everything else in void" 2. Regarding already talking abt the "already talked abt his sentiment and regret for scorning his Italian heritage", yes indeed and now imagine the hidden sentiments for the one he didn't mention. 3.With all due respect but you're obviously biased! you are sticking to the argument mentioned in #1 and occasionally mentioning points that display a lack of knowledge abt Lebanon. From the Barbera name to referring to Lebanese as Arabs. Just for your information, from my travels and those around me. Mediterranean countries are very similar culturally. Very ! Zlogicalape (talk) 16:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC) @Zlogicalape "Unfortunately "i think they made a mistake" doesn't work on Wikipedia" Based on which policy are you saying that? we have equally reliable secondary sources that contradict what the daily telegraph says. Do we have to give it more weight just because it aligns with your POV? I already added a note explaining what the daily telegraph says which should suffice. "The reasons are obvious. Besides the Telegraph there is clear distinction btw being Italian and being originally Lebanese. We've discussed this and your choosing to avoid this." I didn't ignore this; read what I've been saying for two days now. The vast majority of reliable sources don't say his parents were of Lebanese origin, barbera didnt say he had Lebanese descent. I said that he talked about his Italian/Sicilian parents, grandmother, and heritage without mentioning anything about Lebanon. You're avoiding the fact that 99% of the reliable sources mention that his parents were of Italian/sicilian descent and not Lebanese. You're dancing around the fact that he says his parents were Italian sicilian and that he talks about his Italian/siclian heritage by saying that he had hidden sentiments about his heritage; you have engaged in original research in this discussion too much. And you're violating WP:UNDUE I seeked a third opinion and you are still of the same opinion. And keeps bringing up irelevent topics. I therefore have no other option than reporting you if you insist on adding that his father was of Lebanese descent. Whatsupkarren (talk) 18:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC) You're violating WP:NOR as well as WP:NPOV by providing your own analysis of the situation as well as not being able to maintain a neutral view. Making threats to scare me off after i called you out on the the multiple accounts isn't gonna work. Go report. ( you don't care, mooo ? ) Zlogicalape (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC) @Zlogicalape I advise to read the policies you just cited so that you know it is you who's violating these policies, saying things like he had hidden sentiments about his Lebanese heritage or by making "educated guesses" You also can't really say I'm pushing my pov because it was me who added a note stating what the daily Telegraph says and it was me who opened this very discussion. Whatsupkarren (talk) 19:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC) I already stated previously that i made the "educated guess" to compliment yours to respect this discourse we are having instead of immediately shutting you down with policies you are breaking. I have humored your little charade for more than enough. If you want to report then report but if you change the article again to fit your bias then i'll launch the investigative report. Zlogicalape (talk) 20:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I was asked to give my thoughts. It looks like websites mention Barbera's Lebanese heritage, so it's worth keeping. Many people come from multiple places, as families move around. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink wait, Medium is a blog and is unreliable per WP:RS/P it should be avoided unless the author is a subject-matter expert (unlike XXVII.IV ) or the blog is used for uncontroversial self-description.

the only reliable source that mentions a lebanese descent is the daily Telegraph. the other 99% of the sources say he was a son of Italian sicilian immigrants. In his autobiography Barbera says that his parents were Italians, and that his grandmother was Italian, and only talked about his Italian heritage. Before user Zlogicalape reverted my edit, I had added an explanatory note that states the daily telegraph states his parents were of lebanese descent, and that this contradicts what Joseph barbera states in his autobiograph. Please read the whole discussion if you want to still engage in this discussion. Whatsupkarren (talk) 20:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely not "the only reliable source". Here is a Google search, which shows several hits, including an article in The Atlantic, and MTV Lebanon. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink And how is MTV (Lebanon) a reliable source? I can't see why a random Lebanese channel is a reliable source. the Atlantic is indeed a reliable source, but here it only mentions a Lebanese descent in passing, per WP:RELY: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source or information that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable" . Anyways, I think we can add it too to the explanatory note, or explain this issue in the article. The majority of the reliable secondary sources state his parents were Italians/sicilians; or mention his Italian/sicilian heritage.

And I showed them above, one of which comes from one of the closest friends of Joseph Barbera.

I want to note that years ago there was a consensus to remove the Lebanese descent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Joseph_Barbera&oldid=991510105 (see:Joseph Barbera ethnicty)

but it was archived.

Moreover, neither the atlantic nor the daily telegraph states the source of their info. The most reliable source about Barbera is his autobiograohy which trumps all other sources and which also contradicts what the daily telegraph or the Atlantic. Whatsupkarren (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

It's a website specifically about Lebanon, as a branch of MTV, a very well-known part of the entertainment industry. Isn't it possible that his autobiography was true, and his grandparents came from Italy, but further back he might've had descendants from Lebanon? Not to mention, by the time you're talking Barbera's grandparents, the idea of an "Italy" was such a nebulous concept, since the modern nation of Italy didn't arise until the mid-1800s. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink It is not only a website, it’s a channel known in Lebanon and founded by a Lebanese businessman, and it has its own political and nationalist biases and has been engaging in anti Syrian and anti Palestinian racism for years; I couldn't find any source that says its a branch of MTV (idk if this one is a reliable source either) there’s no evidence that this channel conduct real fact-checking. It also calls him Lebanese American, which is not accurate, it could've said he was an Italian American with potential Lebanese ancestry.

“but further back he might've had descendants from Lebanon?”

Yes but we need sources for this, the daily telegraph doesn't say that he had distant Lebanese ancestors. Moreover, check what user Wburrow said earlier in this discussion: “WP:NOTGENEALOGY: Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic.”

Lebanon didn't exist 110 years ago. No one from Beirut 150 years ago would call themselves Lebanese. They would either call themselves Syrian or Ottoman Whatsupkarren (talk) 07:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

If we are going to avoid sources/ppl on the assumption that they are anti-this and anti-that then listening to a Syrian Nationalist that has an agenda against all things Lebanese related would apply as well and therefor this talk should end. (aside from the multiple accounts thing). Just for the sake of making a point. In addition to what u've mentioned, the ppl from a century ago would identify with the area they are from , the sect they belong to (Maronite for example), ... Definitely not Syrian or Ottoman, the Ottomans occupied them and it wouldn't make sense to identify with them (perhaps certain loyalists sure, NOTE the other user purposely specified Beirut). So to further clarify through an example, one would identify as "A Maronite from Mount Lebanon" BUT in Diaspora, they would be labeled by Governments as Ottoman/Turk mainly and Syrian 2nd. This ofc was a century ago.

Moreover, regarding what the "other" user Burrow stated, i already replied that Stating a parents' background does help us gain understanding into his life as well as the parent ! Zlogicalape (talk) 11:57, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

MTV is not a reliable source, there's simply no evidence MTV Lebanon is a reliable source. It's a Lebanese channel with obvious biases. If you believe it is then go take it to the reliable sources noticeboard.

You also don't have to listen to me, you only have to listen to what Barbera says in his autobiography and what the countless other RELIABLE sources state. You have refused to engage productively at the dispute resolution noticeboard. And are porsonalizing the topic at this point. I will return it to the old version, where an explanatory note explains what the daily telegraph states. And if you reverted it I'm going to report you for pushing your POV Whatsupkarren (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

And BTW, I just found out that the Lebanese MTV's actual name is Murr television, which comes from the nickname of its Lebanese founder Michel Murr. So MTV stands here for Murr Television and not Music Television as it is the case with MTV. It is said "not to be confused with MTV" in MTV (Lebanon) above in the article. In other words the two channels are not related Whatsupkarren (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

You already tried to report/dispute and you've received your answer on that page ( these childish tactics wont work here ).

You have taken matters into your own hands and avoided what you've been told on the dispute page in addition to being in violation of WP:NOR, WP:NPOV as well as WP:THISORTHAT Zlogicalape (talk) 13:12, 29 August 2024 (UTC)