Talk:John Williams (running back)

Requested move 4 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that "Jr" disambiguates sufficiently. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 15:57, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

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John Williams (running back) → John Williams (1980s running back) – Ambiguous with John Williams Jr. Disambiguating qualifier per WP:NCGRIDIRON. 207.161.86.162 (talk) 03:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:23, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

• @207.161.86.162 and Station1: queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:25, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
• Not necessary. Just add a hatnote if John Williams Jr was known as John Williams. Much better than sending people to hunt for him on John Williams (disambiguation). Station1 (talk) 04:04, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

  @Station1: We can see that John Williams Jr. is indeed referred to as John Williams – it's even the title of a page about him that is cited in the article. But what leads you to believe that the 1980s running back is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the title John Williams (running back)? 207.161.86.162 (talk) 04:08, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

  I never said anything about a primary topic. Just that for the very rare person who searches for "John Williams (running back)" it's much easier for them to click on a hatnote pointing to John Williams Jr than to be redirected to John Williams (disambiguation) where they'll have search for him without even knowing that he's listed as John Williams Jr. The change will make things worse for readers, not better. Station1 (talk) 15:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

  @Station1: If there is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here, further disambiguation is not optional. Wikipedia:Disambiguation § Disambiguation page or hatnotes? states:

  If an ambiguous term has no primary topic, then that term needs to lead to a disambiguation page. In other words, where no topic is primary, the disambiguation page is placed at the base name.

  In this case, the ambiguous term in question is John Williams (running back). The term could equally refer to the NFL player or the CFL player. And, as you've recognized, it certainly isn't the case that one player or the other meets the standards of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.

  The solution you are proposing is the one contemplated by WP:ONEOTHER, which begins: If there is a primary topic located at the base name, then the question arises whether to create a disambiguation page, or merely to link to all the other meanings from a hatnote on the primary topic article [emphasis in original]. It is one of the three possible disambiguation scenarios permitted by our guidelines. Two of the scenarios require a primary topic; the other scenario requires either a disambiguation page at the title or redirection to a disambiguation page. As there is no primary topic, the WP:ONEOTHER solution is not permitted here.

  Given the clarity of our guidelines on how to handle this case, I'm wondering how you reconcile your position with WP:DISAMBIGUATION. 207.161.86.162 (talk) 00:23, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Notes

Of course it's optional! Proof is that it's been like this for years with no problem. Guidelines are helpful suggestions about how to handle situations generally. They're never mandatory in specific cases, and never meant to make things worse. And in this case the dab guideline cited isn't even really relevant. Primary topic is part of policy WP:AT, which says titles should be concise, recognizable and no more precise than necessary. Primary topic comes into play, generally, when the best title for two different articles would be identical -- those are the cases where we have no option; at least one of the titles must be disambiguated, because the software can't handle identical titles. But here we have two titles that that are not identical to each other or to the primary topic, which is John Williams. Is it possible that John Williams Jr. could be searched for as "John Williams (running back)"? Yes, but really not that likely. And if he is, in rare cases? Then put a hatnote on John Williams (running back). That's not only the less intrusive solution, but is actually better for anyone searching for the other one, as explained above. You have yet to explain how the proposed move would actually benefit any reader. (Although, frankly, with only 2 or 3 daily readers each, the vast majority of whom come from outside sources or from wikilinks or from the dab page, moving this will make little difference to anyone.) Station1 (talk) 05:27, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, the "Jr." does a fine job of disambiguating these two. 162 etc. (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.