Talk:John VI of Portugal/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

A difficult passage

Rather than bicker over the name, I've been focusing on translating the far more extensive Portuguese article. However, I've hit one very difficult passage, and my Portuguese, while decent, is not by any means fluent. (Portuguese would not rank among my four strongest languages.)

In the Portuguese article, there is a quotation from José Acúrsio das Neves: "Queria falar e não podia; queria mover-se e, convulso, não acertava a dar um passo; caminhava sobre um abismo, e apresentava-se-lhe à imaginação um futuro tenebroso e tão incerto como o oceano a que ia entregar-se. Pátria, capital, reino, vassalos, tudo ia abandonar repentinamente, com poucas esperanças de tornar a pôr-lhes os olhos, e tudo eram espinhos que lhe atravessavam o coração." My best rendering of this is "He wanted to speak and could not; wanted to move and, convulsed, did not succeed in taking a step; he walked over an abyss, and envisioned a future dark and as uncertain as the ocean to which he was about to submit himself. Country, capital, kingdom, vassals, he was about to leave all of these suddenly, with little hope of setting eyes on them again, and all were thorns that passed through his heart." While I believe the gist of this is correct, I strongly suspect that somewhere in here I have missed a nuance. If anyone believes they can do better, please do have at it. - Jmabel | Talk 04:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds right to me. Splendid translation! If I was to nitpick, it'd only be if on some minor points where it may sound awkward in English, e.g. "He wanted to speak and could not; he wanted to move", as the he pronoun is kinda expected in English. Perhaps also: "as the ocean to which he was about to submit himself" might be better "about to deliver himself". Also, "all were thorns" is a bit ambiguous. Maybe "all these were thorns"? Walrasiad (talk) 08:45, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Very well, and the same to the two first suggestions of Walrasiad. About the last, «tudo era», the idea is more or less «and everithing were spines that crossed his heart», or «crossing on his heart». Jorge alo (talk) 13:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll certainly adopt most of Walrasiad's suggestions. Walrasiad and Jorge: is one of you by any chance native or near-native in Portuguese? I just couldn't judge whether tudo here meant "all these" or "Everything [in the world]". If it is clearer to a native speaker, I'd want to know. It reads to me as ambiguous. Jorge: I'm pretty sure espinhos que lhe atravessavam o coração is a reference to the thorns piercing the Sacred Heart of Jesus; come to think of it I should probably switch to "pierced". "All" vs. "Everything" is really not a difference of meaning, I think the former is more poetic in a poetic passage if we are going to keep that meaning rather than "all these." - Jmabel | Talk 18:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jmabel. Your translation is good. Some minor points: "over" could sound that he is going over the abyss, whereas he walking along/ towards it, but not over; you switched noun and adjective in "futuro tenebroso". However, the biggest issue is "Pátria" for which there is no ready equivalent in English. Fatherland/ motherland/ homeland would convey the sense of partiotism/ nationalism of "pátria", but which one?

He wanted to speak and could not; he wanted to move and, convulsed, could not get one step right; he walked above an abyss, and [2 OPTIONS: 1.a dark future stared him in the face/ 2.was met by a dark future] and as uncertain as the ocean to which he was about to surrender. Patria, capital, kingdom, vassals, he would be abandoning all of these abruptly, with little hope of setting eyes on them again, and all [2 OPTIONS: 1.these things/ 2.of these] were thorns that pierced his heart Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 07:47, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to edit accordingly, except for patria, which pretty much does not exist in English (no native speaker would use the word in this context). I realize "country" is not quite literal, but it is certainly the word a native English speaker would use. (e.g. "For God and country", "My country right or wrong".) - Jmabel | Talk 23:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Another one: "O clima político se mostrava indeciso, e com isso mesmo os mais firmes defensores do liberalismo recearam se comprometer em demasia." This seems pretty straightforward, and I've rendered it as, "The political climate was undecided, and even the staunchest defenders of liberalism feared to compromise too much." I realize I have not been literal on "com isso"; unless I'm missing something, it didn't add much. But this doesn't make much sense in context. It is precisely "the staunchest defenders" ("os mais firmes defensores") who would be least likely to compromise, so why does it make sense to say that even the staunchest defenders … feared to compromise." - Jmabel | Talk 18:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

You are right - it would make no sense for "even the staunchest to fear". But "comprometer" also means to commit oneself/ to expose oneself (to a cause) So, they might have been staunch, but did not necessarily want to be seen to be so.

The political climate was uncertain, and as a result, even the staunchest defenders of liberalism feared [OPTIONS: 1.over committing themselves/ 2.exposing themselves too much/ 3.getting overly involved/ getting too involved]. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 07:47, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks, I'll edit accordingly. Actually, English does have "compromising oneself" with a similar sense, but I think it would not be the clearest choice here, given that it is not a quotation. - Jmabel | Talk 23:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

And another. O rei "…compreendia que a Igreja, com seu corpo de tradições e sua disciplina moral, só lhe podia ser útil para o bom governo a seu modo, paternal e exclusivo, de populações cujo domínio herdara com o cetro. Por isso foi repetidamente hóspede de frades e mecenas de compositores sacros, sem que nessas manifestações epicuristas ou artísticas se comprometesse seu livre pensar ou se desnaturasse sua tolerância cética. … Aprazia-lhe o refeitório mais do que o capítulo do mosteiro, porque neste se tratava de observância e naquele se cogitava de gastronomia, e para observância lhe bastava a da pragmática. Na Capela Real mais gozava com os sentidos do que rezava com o espírito: os andantes substituíam as meditações." My rendering: "The king "…understood that the Church, with its body of traditions and its moral discipline, could only be useful for a good government in his manner, paternal and exclusive, of populations whose dominion was inherited with the scepter. Because of this, he was repeatedly host to monks and patron to composers of sacred music, but none of these Epicurean or artistic demonstrations compromised his free thought or denatured his skeptical tolerance. … He made more use of the refectory of the monastery than of its chapel, because the one was observance and the other was no question of gastronomy, and for observance he was pragmatic enough. In the Royal Chapel he more took pleasure with the senses than he prayed with the spirit: andantes took the place of meditations." In this case I am sure I have the general sense correct, some of the rhetoric throws me a little, especially Aprazia-lhe o refeitório mais do que o capítulo do mosteiro, porque neste se tratava de observância e naquele se cogitava de gastronomia, e para observância lhe bastava a da pragmática.. - Jmabel | Talk 04:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion: "The king "…understood that he only stood to gain (1) from the Church, with its body of traditions and its moral discipline, for the good governance, in his own paternal and exclusive way, of people over whom he inherited the rule with the sceptre. Because of this, he was repeatedly the guest of monks and patrons of composers of sacred music, without at any of these Epicurean or artistic presentations having his free thought compromised or his sceptical tolerance denatured. … He derived more pleasure from the dining hall of the monastery than from its chapel, because in the latter it was about observance and in the other one thought of gastronomy, and in terms of observance, the pragmatic one was enough for him. In the Royal Chapel he took more pleasure with the senses than he prayed with the spirit: andantes took the place of meditations."

(1) in the same sense as “a good walk can only be good for you”; i.e. it won’t harm/ do any harm.; you have nothing to lose; only gain. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:40, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• (1) "he only stood to gain" is a bit non-literal, given that this is a quotation. (2) So hóspede in Portuguese is "guest," not "host? My bad. (3) "the pragmatic one was enough for him" is good. - Jmabel | Talk 15:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Another phrase I'm not sure I understood: não oferece conhecimento histórico novo ao espectador, nem que se considere que a mesma concebe a História como um Romance… I've rendered this as "[I]t does not offer new historical knowledge to the viewer, but treats history as a romance," but I suspect I'm not quite on the mark there. If someone can do better, please do. - Jmabel | Talk 15:42, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

"Nem que se" = even if one were to Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 16:15, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. It's the little colloquial phrases like that which always are the hardest for me in Portuguese. - Jmabel | Talk 11:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yet another. For the first time in a while I had some time this evening to work on this. "o príncipe regente tem sido várias vezes acusado de apatia; a mim, pareceu-me ele possuir maior sensibilidade e energia de caráter do que em geral tanto amigos como adversários costumam atribuir-lhe. Achava-se colocado dentro de circunstâncias novas e próprias para pô-lo à prova, curvando-se ante elas com paciência; se incitado, agia com vigor e presteza." I translated this as "The prince regent has been various times accused of apathy; to me, he seemed to have greater sensitivity and strength of character than was generally attributed to him by both friends and opponents. He was placed in new circumstances by which he was tested, bowing before them with patience; if incited, he acted with vigor and promptness". I think that is largely correct, but I was thrown by the latter part of "...Achava-se colocado dentro de circunstâncias novas e próprias para pô-lo à prova..." I doubt it changes the overall sense, but I seem to be missing some subtlety. - Jmabel | Talk 04:28, 17 May 2012 (UTC)